“ Great Sermon now in Print! ” We have also posted a transcript of this vital message on our church website at www.tbcnj.org.
This sermon sets forth important biblical principles of effective fatherhood that every father and every father's child would benefit from.
Please listen to the first sermon in this two-sermon series as well.
“ Great Sermon now in Print! ” We have posted a transcript of this vital message on our church website at www.tbcnj.org.
This sermon sets forth important biblical principles of effective fatherhood that every father and every father's child would benefit from.
“ Rare Teaching! ” We are grateful to God that this rare series of Biblical instruction by Pastor Martin is being made available. We eagerly anticipate the entire series (40 messages) for the benefit of Christian families and indeed the Christian church not to mention our needy world.
“ Great Sermon! ” I wish I had not seen the movie.
Satan does not need to attack us - just cause a little confusion and blur the lines. We'll steer ourselves off track.
I was raised Roman Catholic and later saved. I saw the numerous Catholic references to non-Biblical beliefs that protestants would have nissed - Mary's role as Jesus's main support, St. Veronica's towel, "chalice", not "cup", (the chalice holds Jesus's in the Catholic Mass), saved by touching His , the Brown Scapular. (from Heaven, Mary delivered this cloth from Jesus's crucifixion to a priest, instructing "whoever wears this will not suffer eternal flames."
Caviezel's statement that he made the movie because a vision of Mary told him to do it.
My spirit wrenched as untruths were being shown or said on screen. To be "polite" and not cause a scene, I stayed.
For weeks, when I closed my eyes to focus on Jesus, I saw the image of the actor, not the lover of my soul.
A saved friend at church said he was struck by the scene when Jesus's splattered on the Centurion at the foot of the cross and the Centurian was instantly saved. OUCH!
My mother worships Mary, not Jesus. She was excited that we would all finally see the true part Mary played and why she can save us from our sins. OUCH!
“ Yes, See The Movie ” I have seen the movie though it is banned here. Generally, the movie is a good evangelistic tool. Though there are some negative points on the movie we should only major on the positive. The part that touched my heart was the Last Supper when Jesus called His disciples friends. Yes, I would say see it if you can.
“ The Standard ” Raymond,
I will keep my eye out for the book.
My subject line was just a phrase that struck me as amusing --no deeper meaning.
Now I do not think that seeking Scriptural warrant is quite the same as proof-texting' --for one thing, it's subtle, for another, it takes into account composite teachings. However I am not sure why you seem to think of the regulative principle as a mistaken application. Surely God as the object of worship has the sole right to dictate the manner of worship? Perhaps you could clarify that? Personally the regulative principle seems to me to be a wonderful safeguard God has given us to preserve our worship of Him, and our liberty of conscience in that worship.
Thanks for the details --I hadn't realized that healing prayer is involved in every service.
“ STANDARD ” GIVEN YOUR INTEREST IN THESE MATTERS, MAY I SUGGEST YOUR READING "EVANGELICALS ON THE CANTERBURY TRAIL," BY ROBERT WEBBER. THIS MAN WAS THE SON OF A BAPTIST MINISTER, BECAME A REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN MINISTER, AND WHILE A STUDENT CHAPLAIN AT WHEATON, BECAME AN EPISCOPALIAN.
EVERY SUNDAY WE "TASTE" THE COMMUNION WINE AND TOUCH THE COMMUNION BREAD. THOSE WHO WISH TO, ARE TOUCHED DURING COMMUNION BY THOSE INVOLVED IN HEALING PRAYER. ALL OF THESE ELEMENTS ARE FOUND IN THE BIBLE- YET THE BIBLE DOES NOT PRESCRIBE A SPECIFIC MANUAL FOR FORMAL CONGREGATIONAL WORSHIP. THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS LEFT IT UP TO THE CHURCH TO WORK THROUGH THE PRINCIPLES FOUND IN THE WORD. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT THE REFORMATION - IDEALLY, THE REFORMATION WAS NOT GOOD IN THAT THERE WAS SO MUCH DIVISION. YET IT WAS GOOD IN THE SENSE THAT THE CLARITY OF THE GOSPEL OF GRACE WAS BROUGHT FORTH.I RESIST THOSE WHO TRY TOFIND "BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSE" FOR EVERYTHING, THEREBY MISTAKING APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLE WITH PRINCIPLE ITSELF. EACH TRADITION OF THE CHURCH, FROM THE SACRAMENTAL TO THE EVANGELICAL, FROM THE CHARISMATIC TO THE CREEDAL, HAS SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE WHOLE. FINALLY, HOW DO YOU MEAN THE STANDARD "FALTERS"?
“ The Standard Falters, but Bravely Rises Up ” Raymond,
Do you consider the proliferation of denominations a good thing? The Reformers didn't.
I am not sure if I was clear in what I asked. When you say that an Anglican service involves all the senses, I can see right away how it involves sight, hearing and olfaction. But how does it involve your senses of touch and taste?
I would agree that preaching is only one part of the elements of a worship service. What is interesting to me, though, is that it seems that all the elements spelled out in the Bible involve the truth, and our response to it. On that criteria, you could list just two elements in worship: truth and response. My viewpoint is that communion is intimately related to truth.
“ Standard ” Waht changed? How many different denominations have been the result of the Reformation? And how many diffrent emphasis' resulted in terms of theology and worship?
"Taste"? Communion is the focal point of worship each week in the service.Once again, I do not denigrate the importance of or the necessity of sound biblical preaching. Yet, I see it as part of the whole, an important ingredient of the whole. Once again, to use the analogy of Richard Wagner- he went from being just a symphonist to writing musical drama, involving the orchestra, the human voice, stage,storyline etc. as the vehicle for his message. An Anglican service involves all of the senses in acts of worship.It involves the totality of the person, is both active and meditative, celebatory and meditative.
“ 'The Standard Marches On!' ” Raymond,
In your view, what changed at the time of the Reformation? What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure why you say that we've learned "after the Reformation" that different approaches to worship can complemement one another?
Also I was curious about how a liturgical service impacts your sense of taste. I'm not being finicky --I just haven't had much exposure to liturgical services. I wasn't thinking you were claiming your approach was the only approach. I was wondering if you had a Scriptural warrant (which, as you probably know, can be derived from precept, example, or intimation) for the approach you prefer.
Thanks again for spending the time to resolve my " 'satiable curiosity"
“ Great Sermon! ” I am a reborn Christian I wasnt unaware of the insult to GOD by representing him in a movie so I have decided not to see any movie that depicts my LORD and I want you to know that finding this site has been a wonderful blessing for my comunino with my GOD may GOD bless all the Pastors who preach GOD'S WORDS PLEASE TELL AS MANY PREACHARDS AS POSSIBLE to improve their pronunciation because people like myself who are non native English speakers and who have the need of listening to your language and of course to receive the blessings of all your Pastors Thanks God for this website
“ Standard ” If there is one thing we have learned after the Reformation, the plurality of approach in the Church to worship can complement each other. I do not have a "Revelation" pesonality. I like the logic of Romans, the intellectual aspects of the faith. But, human nature as it is involves the senses. R.C.Sproul in his "Classical Apologetics" says a "given" in knowledge means udnerstanding the basic necessity and reliabioity of the senses. I think that the liturgical approach combines all the senses so that things stick. It is amazing to me that a 25 minute message has so much more power in a litugical setting that a 1hr. message that is the centerpiece of the service.
I, however, do not have book chapter adn verse to declare that my approach si the "only" approach.
“ 'The Standard Again' ” Raymond,
Thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm off the mark too far if I take it that you think that a typical Reformed church is a "Romans" approach (as you defined that in your last post) whereas a liturgical church is a "Revelation" or "Gospels" approach. I was wondering though, two things.
1. Do we all need all of them in balance, or were your comments about the different experiences of saints applying also to different "flavors" of churches? So for instance I might have a "Revelation" personality and therefore need a "Revelation" church whereas Calvin naturally gravitated to a "Romans" style.
2. Do these different literary types in Scripture constitute a warrant for different types of worship?
By the way, I didn't meant to imply that I thought you were saying your experience was the arbiter. Sorry if I came across that way. I was just wondering if you thought that your experience was a confirmation of Biblical teaching that would apply to all.
“ The standard ” I do not believe my experience is the final arbiter of truth, the Word of God is. It would be the hight of pride for me to assume that every one should follow after me. For instance, God dealt with Abraham in one way, yet worked with Jacob very differently, very patiently,etc. So God has his ways with each of us individually in the mystery of His providence. God's Word is a mosaic of many different approaches to His revelation of Himself. In Romans He takes us to the library. The Book of Revelation presents us with a stained glass window. The Gospels He invites us to open up the history book. Likewise our experiences are multi-faceted according to God's plan for each of us.
“ 'The Standard' ” Raymond,
Please let me know if my questions get on your nerves --I am interested in your experience for a couple of reasons. Just one question tonight.
Do you feel that everyone would share your experience if they did what you have done, or is there legitimate room for subjectivism? As Mozart, who did everything.
“ The Standard ” I am going to refrain from saying else specific about "The message" about "the movie." For RZ, I would simply say that I think the liturgical structure of a sacramental orientation to worship lends itself to "communion". The typical structure in reformed/evangelical services is still preacher-oriented no matter which way you want to slice it.No matter how much is preached on "communion" for instance unless a proper worship orientation is structured, the giftedness and knowledge of the "preacher" will stll take front-stage. Sorry, but I am afraid it is so no matter how sincere the efforts to the contrary. Three years ago I left a reformed church and neverlooked back.I am now in an evangelical Episcopal church. I can't say enough how it has changed my life & my worship. The things spoken of in Scripture like (Rev. 7 "144,000") I can now visualize. And- the people are not uptaight and actually enjoy their faith. For instance, Richard Waner wrote ONE symphony. Later he discovered his true voice was musical drama. Likewise, going from a reformed church (symphony) to a liturgical church (musical drama) blends everything, especially marginalizes the power over the people the pastor(s) may have.
“ The Standard ” John,
At the risk of sounding like a broken record (see below on the thread) the standard for evaluating something is not what results attend it, but what God's word says. David was strengthened as king by the death of Ishbosheth --but he killed the men who killed Ishbosheth. Similarly God may over-ride something to greater good (Romans 8:28 tells us that He does do this) yet still not approve of that thing.
Amen to what you say Raymond. It is more than possible to be anti this or that without any grace in the heart. Of course, when grace comes into the heart, then we will be graciously anti certain things. By the way, if you get time I'm interested in what you say to my 3/28 post to you.
“ Great Sermon! ” When peoples lives are changed because of what they have encounted from this movie,(as in a born-again experience) I would be careful not to judge. God's ultimate plan for a lost and dying world is perfect and is without fault or failure. The bible is clear in that it says "No man can come to Me except the Father draw him," . If this movie is off track then who is turning peoples hearts to the Lord.
Remember God is not moved by our opinions, He longs for a people who are obedient and who are willing to testify on His behalf.
People aren't changed by our opinions or our criticisms, but they are changed because of our obedience and the lifestyle that we outlive, a lifestyle that glorifies our heavenly Father.
Isaiah 45:9
"Woe unto himwho strives with his Maker!
Let the potsherds strive with the potsherds of the earth!
Shall the clay say to him who forms it "What are you making?"
Or shall your handiworksay "He has no hands?"
“ Re: 'The Passion' ” The important question for all of us is, whether you approve of the movie or not, is "Were you there when they crucified my Lord?"
6/20/04 10:10 AM
