“ Troubled By sermon ” I wonder if the reason why there has been such an outcry against Gibson's movie from those from the Reformed perspective is that, deep down, those steeped in the Reformed Faith have a tendency to shy away from words like "love" and or the truth of Christ's humanity. For example, the one attribute of God not mentioned in the Westminster Confessions definition of God is "love." Those of us in the Reformed Faith love the Epistles but really tend to shy away from the Gospels. Why is that? Could it be that we like to think of the Faith as an argument rather than a story. Gibson was presenting a story- not an argument. Do we not in the Reformed Tradition tend to de-personalize Jesus and make Him into a theological concept?
Lets lay down the boxing gloves of judging Gibson's heart and motives and leave things to God. He "rides above the storm and plants His footstep in the sea." In in all of our hymnals, we are able to sing the melodyin our hymnal taken from a secular symphony, Beeethoven's Ninth, certainly God can purify and redeem whatever perceived difficulties everyone thinks is wrong with the movie. Oh! Shame on us for singing that melody that ws really about some fictitious place called "Elysium"!
“ Commercialization of the Gospel Message ” I wonder if those going to see this movie, ponder upon paying their admission fee to the movie theater to pay for this *commercial* undertaking, the words of Paul in his second letter to the church at Corinth.
2 Corinthians 2:17
Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.
“ Great Sermon! ” Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus be cursed, and no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
We saw Christ in this movie. We saw the price he paid for sin, his suffering that was foretold in the prophets, his divinity, his authority over the devil and over death, his love for his children, his infinite wisdom in the face of his tormentors, and his words - the words of Scripture that speak the Gospel regardless of their context. You can't tell me that anyone in our modern day will worship some image in a movie, or bow down to a man's face as if the face itself were holy, or latch onto every little Catholic insinuation and make it their doctrine. Jesus was central to the whole story, and everyone left the theater thinking about HIM - not about the peripherals that we Reformers are famous for getting hung up on. The devil would like nothing better than to keep Christians talking about the movie, and not about Jesus; our conscience is our own regarding whether we approve of it, but the fact is that people are seeing "The Passion" and wondering what Christ is all about. We have the preaching of the Word and the gifts of the Spirit, and God help us if we spend them working against something that portrays Christ crucified.
“ Troubling Sermon ” I do not share everyone's enthusiasm for Rev. Martin' message. One of the points made by Rev.Martin is an objection to the focus on the physical sufferings of Christ and that Gibson's description was h ighly speculative. Yet, many in the Protestant tradition have preachng many messages on the "soul suffering" of Christ. This too is highly speculative if not more so.
However, the most unfortunate turn in this sermon was at the end wherein Rev.Martin admonished the congregation to choose between him(the elders) and Mel Gibson. Only God in His Word can bind the conscience; not the particular application of a well-meaning Christian. Is not putting such an wedge between people's consciences and God inviting one of the worst forms of image worship- the pleasing of man?
Furthermore, if preaching and the Lord's Supper is the only legitimate means of Gospel expression, perhaps we all should line up to have a real "book burning" of Handel's "Messiah."
“ Great Sermon! ” For all you who oppose this movie and all the "Catholic" scenes, I am truly dismayed. I am a Baptist preacher and quite honestly am tired of hearing about how "evil" others are. How about getitng the mote out of our own eyes before trying to remove our brothers mote. We have become so critical in everything we do concerning Christianity that we cause people not to want to be like us. Shame on those who degrade others because they think like you. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. We are continually being saved because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. Praise God He's alive! There is no room for such criticism in Christ's work. Instead of calling things (like the "Passion") heresy, and the people behind them evil, why don't you try to see them saved from the firey pits of Hell to Heaven. Use the law to show God's love for them instead of being critical. The question is not "what would Jesus do" but "what did Jesus do". He pointed out heresy in the religious factions and showed them how to go to Heaven by spill His love, His blood, on the ground. I believe that was very well portrayed in this movie and that quite honestly was the intent of the show. Use it as an evangelistic tool. Use it like you eat fish, spit out the bones.
“ Great Sermon! Keep On Keep'n On Pastor! ” Matt. 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
It's interesting that "Christians" are raving about "The Passion" as being the greatest tool of all time to bring people to Christ. (What about God's Word?)
"The Passion" comes with an "R" rating for intense, brutal violence. If this film were really of God, it would have been made in such a way that children could have come with their parents to view the film.
Matt. 18:5 "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me."
We also see a warning from Jesus:
Matt. 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believeth in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the sea."
Apparently, Mr. Gibson took this warning to heart when he made "The Passion" with "R" rated content, thus blocking the attendance of children.
Prior to hearing this sermon by Pastor Martin, I had already decided this was not a film that I would take my family.
I applaud Pastor Martin's stand for truth in a time of dangerous deception.
I have no desire to see a film depiction of my best Friend being brutalized.
“ Thought-Provoking Message! ” I am amazed that so much is said about “The Passion” breaking the second commandment. If you accept Dr. Martin’s criticism of this movie based on this principle, then again you must thoroughly purge yourself from “any likeness of anything (Exodus 20:4)”. All crosses, ten commandment monuments, nativity scenes (living or otherwise), holiday ornaments and decorations, biblical paintings, illustrated bibles (yes, children’s bibles too), etc…They must all be done away with according to Dr. Martin’s interpretation of the second commandment. This point has even more room to go…If any likeness of anything means what it says, then what about family portraits, newspapers, postcards, wallpaper…ridiculous right? Not according to Dr. Martin’s position of any likeness of anything. Again, it is possible to keep the letter of the law without keeping the spirit of it. Nevertheless, this is obviously a thought-provoking message.
“ Roman Scourging ” Those who don't believe Jesus was beaten as badly as Mel Gibson portrays, please consult Chapter 27 of "Christ on Trial" by Dr. Klaas Schilder, who was hardly a Romanist, for a description of Roman scourging. "The Romans...found the punishment so gruesome that they permitted it to accrue to Roman citizens only in the most extraordinary cases". He suffered thusly for His people.
“ Mary Co-Redeemer Part 2 ” When Christ is being beaten by Roman soldiers He falls to His knees. But suddenly He looks up and sees Mary! He then has the strength to stand back up on His feet to the great astonishment and amazement of the Roman soldiers who acclaim that it is a miracle. But then the movie portrays her doing it again.
Mary then is able to see satan following Christ. Christ and Mary are the only one’s who can see satan in the movie, no one else can see him. Again, this is the portrayal of the Co-suffering of both Christ and Mary in Mel’s Co-Redemptrix theology.
The source of another icon relic is portrayed by ICON Productions in their movie production of The Passion. A woman hands a towel to Christ to wipe His face. But instead of wiping His face in a “natural way” Christ only presses the towel directly to His face which we later see forms the outline of His face on the towel in blood. This is supposedly the source of the famous Roman Catholic relic of Christ’s facial impression on cloth.
Mary and most of the women around her all looked like nuns. The dark robe covering their heads with the white trim on the inside of their hoods was very, very nun-like.
I also don’t believe Christ suffered those deep wounded scars all over His body.
“ Mary Co-Redeemer Part 1 ” The movie starts out with "ICON Productions" and then a picture of an ICON with the sound of a loud thunderclap that follows the image.
At the beginning of the movie Mary is awoken suddenly and supernaturally in what appears to be her home when Christ's suffering has begun. She is shown in a house living with another woman by themselves with no husband or children or any relatives. It reminded me of a convent. This is portrayed again and again in the movie.
Throughout Christ's entire suffering ordeal Mary is present suffering at every point. This is the doctrine of Mary Co-Redemptrix that both Mel and the Pope believe.
All the disciples called Mary "Mother" with a capital "M" throughout the movie. Of course this is the Roman Catholic doctrine that Mary is the “Mother of God.”
Peter falls on his knees in front of Mary and confesses his sins to her of his denying Christ three times. Mary reaches out to touch and comfort Peter but he backs up on his knees saying he is unworthy of her.
Mary is honored by the wife of Pontius Pilate! Pilate’s wife brings Mary towels while bowing her head Mary then uses the towels to wipe-up the blood of Christ which is the source of a famous Roman Catholic relic.
“ Thoughtful Scriptural Insight ” Although "The Passion" has not arrived here in the UK I thought I'd listen to the sermon before it does, despite my reservations about seeing the film anyway. I think Pastor Martin gives sufficient credit to the film at the beginning and then shows its shortcomings. The overriding issue, which he mentions at the end, is the flagrant breaking of the 2nd Commandment. This does not appear to have been previously mentioned much in other comments. How can a Christian then endorse such a thing? Whether one is an advocate of the film for evangelistic purposes or whatever, this film flies in the face of the 2nd Commandment. How then, with Exodus 20 open, can a true believer go and see this idolatry? It truly is beyond me. If people are willing to talk on spiritual matters because of the film then we should give God the praise that they do so but there is absolutely no Biblical justification whatsoever for a born-again Christian to see this film.
“ Where is the discernment? ” I have wondered why this film seems to be so overwhelmingly accepted by nearly all the churches around me? I wish that we could have been presented with some background on it in church before endorsing it from every direction.
“ A Conflict but Gospel Opportunity ” That Mel's movie is thoroughly Roman Catholic just about everyone agrees, especially Mr. Gibson.
May I recommend a book to everyone related to the very real and serious conflict between biblical Protestantism and Roman Catholicism? It is "The Reformation's Conflict with Rome - Why it Must Continue" by Robert L Reymond. Trinity Book Service has a great price if you don't have the book yet. There can not be peace between the biblical gospel and truth and the religion of Rome. My spiritual forefathers proved that with their blood. Please, read this excellent book and you will understand why they did and why we must stand with them.
Please pray that God will show Mel Gibson the serious error of Roman Catholicism and that many would turn to the Bible as a result of this movie to learn themselves of the true gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ by grace alone, through faith alone. Brethren, whatever our views of the movie, let us redeem the time wisely!
“ passion sermon ” Daniel, i have read brother Shaw's comment again, and you actually seem to be in disagreement to him, rather than agreeing !
You may be ashamed to be a Christian sometimes, but...
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth... Romans 1:16
“ response to other comments ” ugh...I just noticed that the name goes before the comment. I previously meant to say I agree with "Rev. Todd Shaw" (3/2/2004), and I urge others to read his comment.
“ response to other comments ” Sometimes I am ashamed to call myself a Christian, not because of an immoral lifestyle, but because of the absurd manifestations and teachings propagated by "Spirit-filled" Christians, who in an absurd rendition of God's Word transform their characters into unsupportable bloated spiritual critics. Without a doubt there are absolutes on which one must unequivocally draw the line, but a major character flaw of religious overzealots is the transformation of EVERYTHING into either demonically possessed or heaven sent. Just as an example look at Romans 7, where the Apostle Paul himself discusses his own shortcomings. BTW what about Peter when he sinnend in Galatians chapeter 2? From what "tree" did he act? etc. Good people do bad things and vice versa. This to say that the movie (which affected me greatly) is of course imperfect, but one should rather have people talking of Jesus than Allah. Personally when driving I would rather see Churches than mosques, even Catholic churches, though terribly wrong in doctrine, and historically monstrous in action…but it is the duty of true Christians to switch from vocabulary to experience and present Jesus as He is to these whom through such experiences as religion, and this movie, have shown an interest in the Lord.
-I agree with M Jones
“ Great Sermon! ” Praise God for a pastor who speaks the truth instead of seeking to tickle our ears with pleasant words. To those who think that this movie is good, I say,"There are none so blind as those who would not see."
A good tree cannot bear evil fruit and an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. This movie is thoroughly Catholic as any thinking person would expect it to be since it was conceived and planned that way by its thoroughly Catholic director, Mel Gibson. Mel does not know the Gospel message and therefore cannot deliver it on film. This movie is an abomination. No true believer should be polluting his mind by viewing it or giving his money to the "enemy" through paying admission to it.
For those who feel it necessary to view the film before being allowed to have an opinion of it, I would ask "If a bottle were labelled poison, would you want to taste it just to be sure?"
“ passion sermon ” Bob,
you hinted that i was "ganging up "on Michael because i suggested he was in the slough of despond. This was not so.
It is found in Pilgrims progress, and relates to brethren who are discouraged and down.
Just thought that i would point that out.
3/14/04 11:08 PM
