John UK wrote: 1) John, you really need to be careful with words and how you put them together. Here is what you said: "It is appointed unto us all to die, and Jesus died." You see how you've tied in the death common to all men because of sin, with the death of Jesus? If you didn't mean that, why add "and Jesus died"? 2) As for saying that it is those who believe who have the Son, I can assure you that devils believe far more about Jesus Christ than you do, and they tremble. 3) John, it is time for you to begin trembling, over your sins and over your unbelief and over your rebellion against God. Until you feel able to cast yourself on God's mercy, shown through the substitute of Jesus Christ, when he died for sin, you will only ever have a man-centred faith, one which can never save.
1) Jesus came in the likeness of sinful man, yet He was without sin. He suffered for our sins by dying like a sinner.
‚ÄúFor I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠1 Corinthians‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠15:3‚Ä¨
2) ‚ÄúWhoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Mark‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠16:16‚Ä¨
3) So you are saying there is something I can do to be saved?
John UK wrote: John, you say, "It is appointed unto us all to die, and Jesus died, except He was without sin." That is a dreadful statement! And heretical! It is appointed unto MEN to die, and that, for their sins. Read these two verses an hundred times. Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV (27)¬† And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (28)¬† So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Stating a fact is now heretical? Jesus did die. The Just for the unjust. However, because Jesus alone was sinless and faultless before God the Father, He was worthy to be raised from the dead. Now if you are without the Son, you are not a child of God. Who has the Son? Those who first believed!
It is appointed unto us all to die, and Jesus died, except He was without sin. Therefore, He alone was worthy to be raised from the dead. It‚Äôs that simple! He couldn‚Äôt have paid back to God what we did because sin demands punishment. Therefore, our sins had to be forgiven and forgotten, as it is for those who are baptized into Jesus Christ. It is then that we are clothed in His righteousness, which is not a righteousness of our own. If Jesus somehow paid God the Father off for our sins, we would still be guilty of sinning. We just wouldn‚Äôt receive any consequences for our sins.
The promises are real. So when God says He will give Abraham the Promise Land, Gentiles will also live there. When Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the Jews, He is also the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
Different analogy. Gentiles weren‚Äôt even a part of the picture yet either.
It really doesn‚Äôt matter what I wish because God has grafted Gentiles into the olive tree regardless of how I would feel about it. Now if you ask me, I thank God for it!
‚ÄúAs regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Romans‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠11:28-29‚Ä¨
Please understand, this is not talking about the church but Israel who is beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Why?! Because the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Capeesh?
Gentiles being grafted into the cultivated olive tree tells you that they are different than the cultivated olive tree! They are just grafted into the cultivated olive tree being part of a wild olive tree. They receive the same nourishment, while remaining different. The promises of God that the Gentiles may receive are dependent on God offering them to Israel.
‚ÄúFor I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Romans‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠1:16‚Ä¨
The gospel is to the Jews first.
‚ÄúThere will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Romans‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠2:9-10‚Ä¨
The Jewish people are prioritized over Gentlis. The reason Gentiles are saved is because they have been grafted into the cultivated Jewish olive tree.
‚ÄúAnd I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Revelation‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠21:2‚Ä¨
To answer your question, the new Jerusalem.
It is God‚Äôs covenant with Abraham and not with John UK.
If God is through with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, maybe you could let Satan know so he doesn‚Äôt have them surrounded by the armies of the world in the Battle of Armageddon. Maybe you should tell Jesus so He doesn‚Äôt waste His time coming again to save them because they are not His people!
‚Äúwhich things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar‚ÄĒ‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Galatians‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠4:24‚Ä¨
Furthermore, it says in Hebrews that Abraham didn‚Äôt receive the promise...yet. He will though!
‚ÄúAnd God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on. But even when Abraham had no child, He promised to give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Acts‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠7:5‚Ä¨
‚ÄúBy faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Hebrews‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠11:8, 13‚Ä¨
The promise is to Abraham and his seed. Anyone who believes is an heir to the promises of God. To the Jew first and then to the Gentiles because we have all been grafted into the promises of Israel.
‚ÄúThe covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac, And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel for an everlasting covenant, Saying, ‚ÄúTo you I will give the land of Canaan As the allotment of your inheritance,‚ÄĚ
And say, ‚ÄúSave us, O God of our salvation; Gather us together, and deliver us from the Gentiles, To give thanks to Your holy name, To triumph in Your praise.‚ÄĚ‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠I Chronicles‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠16:16-18, 35‚Ä¨
The land is a promised inheritance to Israel and will be received fully when the remenant of Israel calls out to Jesus to save them physically from the armies of the Gentiles which will surround her and be in process of destroying her people. Then Jesus will return!
2) Retire it?
Hardly, it will be fulfilled!
3) New Covenant?
‚ÄúIn that He says, ‚ÄúA new covenant,‚ÄĚ He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Hebrews‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠8:13‚Ä¨
However, God‚Äôs promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is everlasting. It is not the old covenant with Israel whereby they practice the sacrificial Mosaic Law.
In particular to the Abrahamic Covenant, God has made a promise that Israel will receive a portion of land. Not all of Abraham‚Äôs descendants but only through the lineage of Jacob. Not because they are special, but because of His covenant with Abraham and it I was done this way as a means to bring the offer of salvation to the whole world. There will always only be only one way to be saved and that is through faith in Jesus Christ, as long as that offer stands.
In verse 13 Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. Then He says something to those who believe Him, not the Pharisees.
‚ÄúThen Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, ‚ÄúIf you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.‚ÄĚ‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠John‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠8:31-32‚Ä¨
Then, I believe, the Pharisees chime back in.
‚ÄúThey answered Him, ‚ÄúWe are Abraham‚Äôs descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‚ÄėYou will be made free‚Äô?‚ÄĚ‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠John‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠8:33‚Ä¨
Then Jesus acknowledges that they are Abraham‚Äôs descendants. Although, that does not make them physically the children of the promise. Ishmael was a descendant, but the promise came through Isaac.
So there is no reason to ‚Äúsee‚ÄĚ a contradiction.
It‚Äôs not good to tell Jews that the only way for them to be saved is through faith in Jesus Christ?
It says they believed, so I don‚Äôt know if Jesus then turns and addresses a different group of Jews or if a different set of Jews inserted themselves into the conversation. At any rate, I believe that some descendants of Abraham have been cut off from the cultivated olive tree, just like the Gentiles will be in the future. However, in the end all Israel will be saved and that will result in the resurrection from the dead for all who believed.
Also, they could have been offspring but not through the child of promise who was Isaac. At any rate, it doesn‚Äôt show that God is finished with His everlasting covenant to Israel.
Are you talking about those Jews there who believed?
‚ÄúThen Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, ‚ÄúIf you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠John‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠8:31‚Ä¨
You never finished your point.
It‚Äôs all a variation of replacement theology. You are of the ilk that God didn‚Äôt actually replace Israel because Israel was always the church. Same difference! God didn‚Äôt bring the children of the church out of Israel. He didn‚Äôt let the church cross over into the Promosed Land. The church consist of those who are now part of the one body through baptism into Christ. That wasn‚Äôt even possible before Pentecost, but I don‚Äôt suppose that will stop you!
Fact: Jesus did not have offspring. End of story. Jesus is the Son of God. Those in Christ are also heirs with Him. Your proof-text says:
‚ÄúInasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Hebrews‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠2:14‚Ä¨
Those aren‚Äôt the Son‚Äôs children. Rather the Son becomes like the children so that He might save them. Therefore, Jesus has no physical or spiritual offspring. Only brethren.
The Abrahamic Covenant is nonconditional for all Israel will be saved. Though they are unfaithful, God remains faithful! You don‚Äôt support the cultivated olive tree, it supports you. So if God is finished with Israel, then even the church has no hope. The promises were not made to the Gentiles, correct? Yes!
Your quickening is preticated off of you being in Christ. It is when one believes that they are then placed in Christ and not before they believe, so they can‚Äôt be quickened prior to faith. You can‚Äôt make yourself born again, yet there is something you can do to become born again. That is believe!
All of that stuff about God having to magically make Abram spiritually alive, so that Abram could hear God‚Äôs voice and respond to it is extra biblical, made-up nonsense.
Yes, God has not forgotten Hos everlasting covenant. God has not forgotten it. The covenant wasn‚Äôt about mutilating his wee wee! Although Abraham followed through with that as a sign. The covenant was what God was going to do for Abraham.
‚ÄúThen the LORD appeared to Abram and said, ‚ÄúTo your descendants I will give this land.‚ÄĚ And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Genesis‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠12:7‚Ä¨
It‚Äôs about what God will do for Abraham and his descendants. Abraham didn‚Äôt make the covenant and neither could he break it. Just like how there is nothing you can do to earn your salvation, there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation. That is because it is all about what God does and has promised.
‚Äúdo not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Romans‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠11:18‚Ä¨
The promises given to the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel are not in affect because of the church. The promises were not given to the church and passed on to Israel, but rather they were given to Abraham and passed onto the church
‚ÄúAnd again: ‚ÄúI will put My trust in Him.‚ÄĚ And again: ‚ÄúHere am I and the children whom God has given Me.‚ÄĚ Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,‚ÄĚ ‚Ä≠‚Ä≠Hebrews‚Ä¨ ‚Ä≠2:13-14‚Ä¨
There! Are you happy? What do you think that means?! I don‚Äôt know if I am to stupid to understand doctor speak or if you are the type of doctor who would amputate my left foot when all I needed was a cast on my right one?
Lurker and John UK...
Gentiles have been grafted into the promises that God made to Israel, so if God has forgotten His everlasting covenant that He made to them, we are in big trouble! The text you gave me, Lurker, reminds me of the part of Israel which was cut off from the cultivated olive tree. That doesn‚Äôt mean that God is through with Israel because He has promised to once again graft them back in! You two remind me of those who boast against Israel:
‚Äúdo not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, ‚ÄúBranches were broken off that I might be grafted in.‚ÄĚ Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand