Iâ€™m not sure if God had a moral justification for saving people or not. I just know it is for His own good will.
As I keep pointing out, Lazarus died and was raised from the dead. The Bible says why and this is not even close to a good proof text for irresistible grace as it doesnâ€™t speak to his salvation and was in fact so that others might believe.
John 1 says that Jesus gave the right to become children of God to those who already were believers. Not sure what you donâ€™t understand about that. These were people made children of God and then were forced to believe.
I want to address what you said when I get home from work. I think you are partially correct, but not totally.
What is the purpose of baptism in the Holy Spirit then? If Jesus suffers a eternity in the lake of fire as payment for your sins. I mean, first of all there are folks in prison right now for a crime someone else committed and that doesnâ€™t desire the guilty person of sin, but letâ€™s say God cannot pin any crimes against you because Jesus is taking the fall for you. What would be the point of baptism? If what you say is true, you are innocent of guilt and will enter eternal life because of your innocence.
I think you are brainwashed to think if someone holds a biblical view of Lazarus being raised from the dead, that they must be a Pelagian of some sort, which isnâ€™t the case. I simply pointed out the truth and you are trying to come up with some reason not to believe it. You are trying to shoot the messenger, but have missed. The fact is God chooses who He will save. He chooses to save those who believe!
â€śBut to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.â€ť â€â€Johnâ€¬ â€1:12-13â€¬
Err, maybe you meant another verse? Did you mean this one that says all who believe Him first are then made children of God? That doesnâ€™t sound very Calvinistic! Believers are then born again through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not by anything they have done or could do. It is an act of grace by God.
Lydia was a Gentile God fearer who hadnâ€™t yet heard about Jesus Christ. Anyone who believed the Father was going to believe in the Son as she did. All God did was get her to pay attention to the message. She was already a believer, therefore this isnâ€™t about irresistible grace. Lazarus was physically dead and physically raised again. Nothing implied there about irresistible grace or anywhere in scripture about Lazarus being saved at that moment or taught that this is about that. Itâ€™s extra biblical nonsense which.
â€śYou shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.â€ť â€â€Deuteronomyâ€¬ â€4:2â€¬
Just to finish my last point which was cut off. Just like those other things mentioned, there is only one baptism. There isnâ€™t a sprinkling baptism, a dunking under water baptism, but only the one baptism which Jesus mentions, the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
â€śfor John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."â€ť â€â€Actsâ€¬ â€1:5â€¬
There is nothing Pelagius about scripture! I have not said anything about it. Again, this is Calvinism in a nutshell. If the Bible doesnâ€™t teach it, thatâ€™s okay, we will just make it up! There is only one call of our salvation, just like there is only one baptism.
â€śThere is one body and one Spiritâ€”just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your callâ€”â€ť â€â€Ephesiansâ€¬ â€4:4â€¬
The Bible doesnâ€™t convey a message of irresistible grace. We see many times God reaching out to people and crying over those who will not believe, but He never forces anyone to believe. Thatâ€™s why people invent places where irresistible grace is supposedly taught without any biblical evidence. Nowhere will you find it taught Lazarus was unsaved and God made him a believer. Lazarus was instead raised from the dead to bring glory to God and provide proof to who Jesus was. Peter, who was already a apostle and follower of Christ, believed Jesus to be the Son of God through some kind of unspecified revelation from God. Whether through miracles, or preaching, or vision, we do not know, but at any rate Peter had already been a believer and therefore does not speak to irresistible grace.
â€śThere is one body and one Spiritâ€”just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your callâ€” one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.â€ť â€â€Ephesiansâ€¬ â€4:4-6â€¬
Funny that a mere ordinance should be found grouped together with the body, the Spirit, the call to salvation, the Lord, the faith, our God and Father? It isnâ€™t on the same level as the Lordâ€™s Supper. Itâ€™s far more important and just like the other things mentioned, t
2. Nothing is being inferred, you are reading into the text something that is extra biblical. In other words, made up. Other Jews did believe In Jesus! Did you forget Mary?
â€śand my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;â€ť â€â€Lukeâ€¬ â€1:47-48â€¬
Or Zechariah, or the Canaanite woman?
â€śAnd behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon."â€ť â€â€Matthewâ€¬ â€15:22â€¬
People knew who he was!
3. The writings of the Prophets are not flesh and blood, the miracle of say Jesus walking on water could have given Peter the impression that Jesus was the Son of God. At any rate, this is hardly Calvinistic doctrine! Peter was already a believer.
4. Yes, that is where God sits, where else would He do it from?
â€śIt is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to meâ€”â€ť â€â€Johnâ€¬ â€6:45â€¬
If by elect you mean the Israelis who believed in Jesus, I would agree.
Peter was already a believer by this time who believed that Jesus was the Son of God. He could have learned that through the profits which God sent to Israel or through the preaching of Jesus or through His miracles done through Godâ€™s power to give witness to who Jesus was. There is nothing magical about Peter understanding who Jesus was.
If believing is a work, and we are unable to have faith of our own free will because it is considered salvation by works, then to say that God makes a person believe still makes that personâ€™s faith a work of salvation, if it ever was. I know we werenâ€™t talking about this, but others have brought up that arguement and to me it is illogical and dishonest. I just wanted to point that out.
The whole story of Lazarus has nothing to do what you are saying. Jesus says why He raises Lazarus:
â€ś...It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it."â€ť â€â€Johnâ€¬ â€11:4â€¬
â€ś...so that you may believe" â€â€Johnâ€¬ â€11:15â€¬
â€śI knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me."â€ť â€â€Johnâ€¬ â€11:42â€¬
It was done for the glory of God and so that people would see the miracle and believe! Your made up analogy also doesnâ€™t work because Lazarus was already a believer and when he was raised it didnâ€™t result in his faith which he already had but in other peopleâ€™s faith!
There isnâ€™t a scriptural teaching which equates Godâ€™s calling to what happened to Lazarus. Jesus said He did it to get others to believe, so it does not correspond to your scenario. You would have to say that God made someone else spiritually alive so that others would believe of their own free will.
My point about faith is, if I argue that people believe through the preaching of the gospel, then I will be accused by Calvinist of believing in salvation by works. We have all heard the question posed, well why did you believe and not the other person, were you better? The thing is, scripture doesnâ€™t teach that, Calvinism does teach that the believer had to be changed to believe. So they are in fact teaching they were made better. You canâ€™t have it both ways. Someone explain why if I say people are saved by faith that I am accused of believing in salvation by works!
The unrighteous person is given the ability to believe, but because he is still unrighteous, he will not believe. So he has to become righteous first in the scheme of things otherwise he still wonâ€™t choose God in his natural state. Therefore God must make him righteous before faith so that he is good enough to believe. The reason he ultimately believes is because God has made him better than the many people who are unable to believe.
Thanks for proving my point about Calvinism! You ask how can a man who is not righteous believe and be saved? The answer, of course, is that God must make the person righteous so that they will do the right thing and believe. They are saved because of what they do as a result of what God has made them.
And so it goes that the choice made by Abraham to believe was his own choosing. Something he did caused his salvation. He did the right thing, because he was more righteous than someone who did not believe.
Oh really? Funny how that is exactly what Calvinism teaches! Bobby was made righteous and therefore made the choice to believe because he was the better person. Right? And being the better man means his faith will save him, whereas poor Johnny wasnâ€™t good enough to make the right choice.
I would just like to add that your example of Lazarus isnâ€™t correct. That had nothing to do with salvation, Jesus raised him up to bring glory to God and that the people might believe in Him. It says so in the text. There is nothing metaphorical about it. It doesnâ€™t point to our inability to believe as Calvinism teaches. Read it, you will see!
I never said my claim of what Calvinism teaches is biblically supported. I donâ€™t believe it is and thatâ€™s why I donâ€™t believe what they teach. It is taught that the reason why â€śBobbyâ€ť believes and â€śJohnnyâ€ť doesnâ€™t is because â€śBobbyâ€ť is more righteous. Bobby is saved because he had faith and Johnny didnâ€™t, so Bobby is saved by what he did. The caveat to this is that God first made Bobby righteous enough to believe, so all of the glory goes to God. However, that doesnâ€™t really erase the fact that Bobby was saved because of something he did, which was to believe and we all know if you do something which results in your salvation, it is a work.
When a verse says unbelievers canâ€™t hear or see, it doesnâ€™t mean they were never able or will never be able too. For something to be veiled it must first be seen. Why should the devil bother anyways if people have an inability to believe?! Seems kind of pointless! Like I showed you previously, the preaching of the gospel cuts through all of that anyways.
So now you see why I said Calvinism teaches salvation by works? Itâ€™s taught a person must be righteous enough in order to believe and that the work of faith merits their salvation because faith is the cause of them being saved. The Bible, however, teaches in order to become righteous we must first believe. This righteousness is not our own, it comes from being in Christ who alone is righteous. Faith comes through hearing the preaching of the gospel, which enables sinners to believe. For how else will they believe in whom they havenâ€™t heard? Hearing is the key to faith. Nothing else prevents a persons ability! The preaching of the gospel cuts through all of that other stuff you mentioned!
â€śFor the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.â€ť â€â€Hebrewsâ€¬ â€4:12â€¬
I know Calvinism denies salvation by works, at the same time it promotes it. How so? It is taught that anyone who hears the preaching of the gospel will reject it because they are unable to have faith due to their fallen nature which sinfully opposes God. So, God must change their sinful nature and make them good enough to believe. That is why some believe and some donâ€™t. If you donâ€™t believe, it is because you werenâ€™t good enough and if you do believe, it is because God first made you good enough to believe. Therefore, believers are saved through their work of faith which they could only do because God first made them good enough to do it.
â€śAnd Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."â€ť â€â€Actsâ€¬ â€2:38-39â€¬
Repentance results in baptism of the Holy Spirit. Being found in Christ results in the gift of eternal life.
â€śFor the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€6:23â€¬
Eternal life is in Christ. How are we placed in Christ? Through baptism of the Holy Spirit. Believers are only saved because of being placed in Christ through baptism. Itâ€™s all about what He is and has done for us. We are saved because Jesus is righteous, not us. So we are not saved by our works as Calvinism teaches!
â€śbecause they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,â€ť â€â€1 Peterâ€¬ â€3:20-21â€¬
The passage is talking about how those in the ark were saved through water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves those who believe, but not the kind of water which removes dirt from the flesh. Rather spiritual water as in the Holy Spirit. It cleanses from sin and gives believers a clear conscience before their Holy God. That is because believers are made righteous as Christ is righteous, having put on Christ. Now why would I equate water to the Holy Spirit?
â€śbut whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."â€ť â€â€Johnâ€¬ â€4:14â€¬
There are many such verses which use water and springs as a picture of the Holy Spirit and salvation which comes through Him.