Mike wrote:
Misleading. God's foreknowledge doesn't depend on anything but his omniscience, therefore cannot depend on free will of man.

Which is precisely why we are trying to get the Arminian - Free Will types to see that Faith is the gift of God - NOT the will and faculty (works) of dead sinners.

John for Jesus wrote:
1. The time frame would be after someone believes. That is whom God gives His Spirit, excluding those who do not believe.
2. Faith is an act of obedience, how can it be a spiritual entity?

2. 1Cor 12:9. 2Cor 4:13. Gal 3:5. Gal 5:5. Gal 5:22. Rom 12:3.

Mike wrote:
The gift called "it" of course is salvation, as Calvin understood, not faith

Christ does not ask it, nor can the sinner do it.

Just because the sinner is so vile and so polluted, Jesus says to him, Come unto Me; just because he is in such a pitiable condition and can never better himself, Jesus says, Come unto Me.
It is not you who are whole or who think that you can heal yourselves that Jesus invites, but you who are sick. It is not you who would first wash your souls somewhat clean with your own tears that Jesus invites so that He may wash you in His blood. And be assured of this: where there is faith, you will not wait till you have made preparation to go to Christ;

you will go to Him just as you are:

R2D2 wrote:
How is it that God can require NOTHING of man per your doctrinal interpretations, but YOU can require that man HAND OVER ALL AUTHORITY and CONTROL to the Lord??????? So that he may RECEIVE the teaching of Total Depravity?????
You are one mixed up bag of contradictions!

Clearly you don't understand Total Depravity.
That means "SIN" BTW

Try and Remember that SIN actually does have some influence over the sinner.

Get it? Sinner.

The theory that God requires the sinner to participate or contribute in
some way by retained "human faculty" is essentially the alternative to a
COMPLETE trust.

Thus it is a "partial" trust in divine grace - whilst seeking to add the vain hope that the sinner = NOT quite Totally Depraved = NOT quite dead in sin - can retain an active response towards his own salvation.
Satanically subtle!!

The sinner absolutely hates to hand over all authority and control to
the Lord. That is why many cannot receive the teaching of Total
Depravity, which is the very basis of Limited Atonement and Perseverance.

Thus is Election completely Unconditional.
The Calvinist can declare
I trust in God ALONE
I trust in Christ ALONE
I trust in the Holy Spirit ALONE
I trust in Grace ALONE
For *ALL* my salvation.

Mike wrote:
No such thing as salvation by works. Are YOU Arminian?

John UK wrote:
a] Pinky reckons that:

b] Justification = salvation
Salvation = born again
But if quickening = born again
And salvation = born again
Then a man is saved before he has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ

b] Justification is the work of Christ before God which He achieved in His death (blood) on the cross.
Salvation is the ultimate result of all that Christ completed upon the cross.
Quickening is the work of the Holy Spirit in that He brings us to spiritual life, (born again) from being spiritually dead. Thus enabling us to walk by faith and not by sight, which is the Gift of God to His elect. Only thus can we believe on Christ Jesus

This work of the Holy Spirit ultimately brings us to salvation.
Thus to be saved we must be justified by Christ.
Also to be saved we must first be quickened, obviously the unsaved are NOT yet quickened.

So the Holy Spirit quickens the sinner to spiritually discern - ie works faith in his heart which is the same thing.

Once this journey begins by the Holy Spirit's work the end *IS* salvation.
On the way we are justified, sanctified.....etc

John UK wrote:
Are you saying that a sinner is born again, before he believes?
If you answer yes, then born again does not equal salvation, as this verse demonstrates. Acts 16:31

John UK wrote:
As I've said all along, the order is found in these verses

John UK wrote:
Now then, if you would like to quote any of my posts where I have even hinted at a slight possibility that a man could believe without being quickened by the Spirit, then DO POST IT AND SHOW ME.

John UK wrote:
Are you saying that a sinner is born again, before he believes?
If you answer yes, then born again does not equal salvation, as this verse demonstrates.

Here is the Biblically correct order of salvation as taught by the Reformed (Calvinist) Church.
1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification.

Based upon Romans 8:29-30.

I agree wholeheartedly with this order and perceive it taught in Scripture.

Your theory to reverse regeneration and faith, is simply the same old Roman Catholic dogma of working your own ticket to salvation.

John UK wrote:
Forget Charles just for a minute, and concentrate on the word of God.

The ONLY reason why any sinner could have to seek to become a part of this process - is to steal from God. To presume in sin that he can contribute to his salvation.

BUT as verse 9 states
"**NIL by WORKS**"
Man cannot and does not enter into that which God has ordained in His Word and purpose.

The salvation of the Elect from start to finish is only in the hands of Christ. ONLY Jesus is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith. Heb 12:2.

Ro 12.3 "....but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

John UK wrote:
Come to think of it, when are clothes washed? After you wash them, or before you wash them?
Now then,
Are you saying that a sinner is born again, before he believes?
If you answer yes, then born again does not equal salvation, as this verse demonstrates.
Acts 16:31 KJV And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Now then, do you understand the question? Or shall I simplify it even more?

Faith is the work of the Holy Spirit on a sinner's heart.

Jo 3.5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Spirit first.
Born Again.
Only then will God's gift's of faith and repentance work.
Then human responsibility.

Huh wrote:
.....the same old popish salvation by works again????

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

John UK wrote:
Are you saying that a sinner is born again, then he believes? If you answer yes, then born again does not equal salvation, as this verse demonstrates.
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
(1Cor 1:21)
It is clear that "saved" is the result of "believed".

What Paul is teaching in this verse is that the wisdom of the worldly men, for all their vain belief in it, is going to send them to hell.
Whereas the preaching of the Word of God will be used by the Holy Spirit to save the Remnant whom God has elected unto salvation.

As for your proposal quote - ""saved" is the result of "believed"
I think I'll stick to the merits of Christ since, Jesus saves! - NOT the act of the sinner.

Jn 8.36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jo 15.4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me"

DJC49 wrote:
I could not find where Cornelius's spiritual discernment was mentioned in the Scriptural text of Acts 10. Perhaps you're using a different Bible than I use? Maybe yours is the "New World Hyper-Amplified Super Deductive Study Bible