Eph 1:10, 22-23; Eph 5:23, 27, 32; Col 1:18.
The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation as before under the law) consists of all those, throughout the world, that profess the true religion, and of their children; and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.
Psa 2:8; Rom 15:9-12; 1 Cor 1:2; 12:12-13; Rev 7:9. Gen 3:15; 17:7; Ezek 16:20-21; Acts 2:39; Rom 11:16; 1 Cor 7:14. Isa 9:7; Mat 13:47. Eph 2:19; 3:15. Acts 2:47.
...whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God. 1Co 10:32
And in the church God has appointed...1Co 12:28
I persecuted the church of God. 1Co 15:9...compare with...Acts 9:4-6
"Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Saul asked; "Who are you, Lord?" He answered; "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,"
Local;
....the church in Cenchrea. Acts 16:1
Greet also the church that meets at their house. Romans 16:5
The Church is visible though the saints who are members of Christ's body. 1 Corin. 12:12 & 13
Numbers 27: 18And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
Try thisAnd the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Jesus the Son of God, a Man in whom is the Spirit, and lay thine hand upon Him and only Him.And set Him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give Him a charge in their sight. And thou shalt put some of thine honour upon Him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient.
And He shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for Him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at His Word shall they go out, and at His Word they shall come in, both He, and all the children of Israel with Him, even all the congregation.
See Jesus, its ALL about Jesus
16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation
17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd
18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him
And Moses spake unto the LORD, saying( Moses, telling God what to do, whats new, nothing)( DJC, you don't see it do you?)This does not say anything about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but about a man, a man in whom is the spirit, what spirit, the type that needs1. and lay thine hand upon him;Moses must lay hands , is that what you see?2. and give him a charge in their sight(God?)
3. And thou shalt put some of thine honour upon him,(God?) that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient.
19And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight.(moses?)
20And thou shalt put some of thine honour upon him,(whose honour, moses? that all the congregation of the children of Israe
JD wrote:Hog J. Wash!There is a doctrine of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures and to isolate one verse that refutes the whole body of doctrine in the Scriptures is a mishandling of the Word of God. If the OT saints were permenantly indwelt by the Spirit of God, then there would have been no reason for Christ to have died since reconciling with God could have been accomplished by simply believing.Now I know your theology is of the make-it-up-as-you-go-along kind.You have just shown you are totally devoid of any Old Testament understanding. The Old Testament saints were saved by grace, through faith in the blood of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world as applied to them by the Spirit of God. Regeneration, sanctification and justification are not possible without the operation of the Spirit of God. When Nicodemus questioned Jesus about the rebirth, Jesus did NOT say, "This is a New Testament concept, let me explain it to you!" He said, "Are you THE teacher of Israel and do not know these things?" Why don't you read your Bible, along with some basic helpful guidelines to help you understand, because it is becoming increasingly obvious that you havebn't got the first clue what you are talking about.
Now I know your theology is of the make-it-up-as-you-go-along kind.You have just shown you are totally devoid of any Old Testament understanding. The Old Testament saints were saved by grace, through faith in the blood of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world as applied to them by the Spirit of God. Regeneration, sanctification and justification are not possible without the operation of the Spirit of God. When Nicodemus questioned Jesus about the rebirth, Jesus did NOT say, "This is a New Testament concept, let me explain it to you!" He said, "Are you THE teacher of Israel and do not know these things?" Why don't you read your Bible, along with some basic helpful guidelines to help you understand, because it is becoming increasingly obvious that you havebn't got the first clue what you are talking about.
DJC49 wrote:_______And in the Terry Evans Revised Standard Version, the COMMA between the words *possible* and *with* is supplied substantially changing the meaning of the verse.HOWEVER, in the NIV, the comma is not found. [MK 10:27 - NIV: "Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD."Yes, Terry, the little things that are changed DO make a difference. Like adding commas where there are none.Such are what "strawmen" are made of. Nice try, T.E.
ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, with God( talking about man, God just helps out)
Sould be
ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE with God( talking about man, God just helps out)
changes nothingplese forgive the comma, thanks.to think a comma, could make such a differance.
I notice you have no wisdom on the other
Mark 15:30King James Version (KJV)Save thyself, and come down from the cross(See DJC, save yourself, THEN put down your cross, BUT it can't be done)
New International Version (NIV)come down from the cross and save yourself
( Notice DJC, put down your cross, then save yourself, and as you know, that can be done, thanks for defending the niv)
Follow me wrote:ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, with God( talking about man, God just helps out)
And in the Terry Evans Revised Standard Version, the COMMA between the words *possible* and *with* is supplied substantially changing the meaning of the verse.
HOWEVER, in the NIV, the comma is not found. [MK 10:27 - NIV: "Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD."
Yes, Terry, the little things that are changed DO make a difference. Like adding commas where there are none.Such are what "strawmen" are made of.
Nice try, T.E.
The Cure wrote:I think we should take a vote to see whose hermeneutic is the most ridiculous.DJC49 orLurkerI do not know, they are pretty close.
But then the Scriptures do treat of this subject and state...
Matt 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
Don't pick the fruit from the arminian trees.
There is a doctrine of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures and to isolate one verse that refutes the whole body of doctrine in the Scriptures is a mishandling of the Word of God. If the OT saints were permenantly indwelt by the Spirit of God, then there would have been no reason for Christ to have died since reconciling with God could have been accomplished by simply believing.
The Holy Spirit after the cross becomes a permanant part of the NT "church" saints. It is the definition of being "born again".
No OT saint was ever born again because of inherent sin. The blood of Christ is the ONLY remedy for sin. Those OT saints who believed in Jesus, those whom the Father gave to the Son, the SHEEP of God's pasture, if you will, and were justified by faith in him, later received the Holy Spirit by being baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ as a condition of receiving the Spirit and inclusion in the church of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit thus indwelling them and immersing them into the "body of Christ", the church. (Exceptions are his disciples)
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the WASHING of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; See Re 1:5 in this context!
JD wrote:It would be a neat trick for OT saints to be in the church of Christ
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man IN WHOM [IS] THE SPIRIT, and lay thine hand upon him;" (Num 27:18 KJV)
Seems that the Holy Spirit indwelt Joshua. Neat trick, huh!Is this evidence that Joshua, by virtue of having the Holy Spirit indwelling, was *IN CHRIST* therefore making him a part of the OT Church?
But the church is clearly defined in the Scriptures. It is the body of Christ of which he is the head. It is those believers who have been born again by his Spirit of which he is the "firstborn from the dead", see Ro 8:29; Co 1:18. It is entered into by the gospel of Jesus Christ, his death, burial, and resurrection and believing in his name.1 Co 6:11It is the Spirit of God who came to earth and is here now to form the body of Christ and he puts us believers into the functioning body by what he calls baptism. Note:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
This is what it means to be "in Christ" and OT believers were not in this body or the first one in it would have been the "firstborn" instead of Christ.
It would be a neat trick for OT saints to be in the church of Christ
Peter J wrote:I think one way to describe it is that the visible church is what you can see, ie, those who go to a building. The invisible church are the true believers, ie, those who are in Christ. You see that also in the Old Testament church in that not all Israel is the true Israel. The invisible church is that body of Christ which comprises all believers; Jew and Gentile, past, present and future.
Mike wrote:"Do you believe in a local visible church only or an invisible and universal church as well as a local visible church?"How there can be an invisible church? If there is an invisible church, it must be that the invisible church-goers aren't putting their faith into visible action.
The Invisible Church includes: 1) All those who are saved who might presently live in remote areas of the world and not able to "go to a local church." 2) All those who are saved who have since died in Christ. [There's most of the Church right there!] 3) All those who are saved but have yet established communion and identity with a local church.
"THE GATES OF HELL"Sorry, but you guys are wayyyy off base on this one! "The gates of hell" is a Hebrew idiom which means nothing more than the grave ... "death." It has nothing to do with hell at all. The Church does NO offensive "storming of hell's gates." (Hahahaha!)In the Greek it is translated as "the gates of Hades." You see, it is DEATH which shall not prevail against the Church. In other words, the Church will NEVER DIE or cease to exist on this earth. NEVER. There will never be a time when the Church is NOT present and in existence. Ergo, the "perpetuity of the Church."
1) Open mouth
2) Insert foot
.
I am only teasing. i would that you would open your eyes to the truth. I pray that you will.
"Give it another shot, JD. This time, keep focused on what Matthew 16:18 has to say about the perpetuity of the Church. (It will never cease to exist in this world.) And think how that perpetuity comes in direct conflict with the idea that there will be NO Church around for 7 years during the Tribulation."
Nope. Not about perpetuity at all. You are reading Matt. 16:18 as though Jesus is saying the church will not be overcome by Hell. Think about it. Gates are for defense only, they have no offensive function, and cannot even try to overcome anything. The gates of Hell will not prevail against the church, meaning the church is to be offensive against Satan and his works of Hell, which will not prevail against the church's offense.
DJC49 wrote:Give it another shot, JD. This time, keep focused on what Matthew 16:18 has to say about the perpetuity of the Church. (It will never cease to exist in this world.) And think how that perpetuity comes in direct conflict with the idea that there will be NO Church around for 7 years during the Tribulation.
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
4439 pulh pule poo’-lay 1) a gate 1a) of the larger sort 1a1) in the wall of either a city 1a2) a palace 1a3) a town 1a4) the temple 1a5) a prison 2) the gates of hell (likened to a vast prison) 3) metaph. the access or entrance into any state
03898 Mxl lacham law-kham’
a primitive root; v; {See TWOT on 1104} {See TWOT on 1105}
1) to fight, do battle, make war 1a) (Qal)
Perpetuity2. endless or indefinitely long duration or existence; eternity.
The church is eternal but the forming of it isn't! This is not the idea in Mt 16:18!
How there can be an invisible church? If there is an invisible church, it must be that the invisible church-goers aren't putting their faith into visible action.
The difference between "broccoli" and the other definitions proposes is that "world" is never translated as "broccoli". Just like it never is translated as "the elect."
There is a difference in choosing a valid definition and making one up.
JD wrote:Hell is a place for the lost. It imprisons them. But the church is offensive. Jesus will later tell it to "go" and the converts will be those who are imprisoned and destined to hell by their sins. "He is sent to set the captives free". The gates of hell will not be able to stop it.
Give it another shot, JD. This time, keep focused on what Matthew 16:18 has to say about the perpetuity of the Church. (It will never cease to exist in this world.) And think how that perpetuity comes in direct conflict with the idea that there will be NO Church around for 7 years during the Tribulation.
