enough already wrote:Rogerant- If you choose to drink, that's your business. Dr. MacArthur never says we should not drink, however, he points out the significant difference between biblical wine and today's alcohol enhanced wine. This is the gist of the transcript, and then we as believers choose what we should do in light of this knowledge. God's word warns more against drinking, so to me that is an indication not to partake.
Alchohol enhanced wine? Wine is not alchohol enhanced. It sits in a barrel and ferments. No alcohol is added to it. Wine is grape juice that has fermented. Otherwise it would not be wine, it would be grape juice. If anyone loses control or loses their ability to glorify Christ, they should abstain. That is a personal conviction.
enough already wrote:Rogerant- If you choose to drink, that's your business. Dr. MacArthur never says we should not drink, however, he points out the significant difference between biblical wine and today's alcohol enhanced wine. This is the gist of the transcript, and then we as believers choose what we should do in light of this knowledge. God's word warns more against drinking, so to me that is an indication not to partake. If you choose to do otherwise, that certainly is your business.
Right Noah?
Please find me where in the ten commandments, O.T. or N.T. precepts, precedents, ordinances or any other commandments that forbid the drinking of fermented or distilled beverages. I respect John MacAurthur but he has gone through the same type of labourous and extensive work as the Pharisees in Jesus's day to add leaven to the law and gifts of God into forbidden fruit. This type of legalism is "LEAVEN" plain and simple.
Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
And this must mean that Josheph and his brothers drank grape juice and were merry with him!
Gen 43:33 And they sat before him, the firstborn according to his birthright, and the youngest according to his youth: and the men marvelled one at another. And he took and sent messes unto them from before him: but Benjamin's mess was five times so much as any of theirs. And they drank, and were merry with him.
"Then there's this:Rom 14:21 "[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to DRINK WINE, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."
"Obviously, the "weaker brother" is offended by wine drinking of the alcoholic kind. Does this not imply that the "stronger brother" in the faith sees no offense, has liberty to drink, but abstains for the sake of the weaker brother?"
Well, what do you know, DJ, we agree on this! It's hard to cause someone to be offended over drinking grape juice or eating jam. I'm happy to see you didn't "spiritualize" the verse.
But here's what Jesus Himself stated in Scripture:
Luk 7:33,34 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor DRINKING WINE; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and DRINKING; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a WINEBIBBER, a friend of publicans and sinners!"
It's quite obvious to me that the Lord Himself drank the wine of his day -- his enemies even accused Him of EXCESS. They couldn't have so accused Him if all the sinners and publicans drank only grape juice.
Then there's that wedding feast at Cana ... Someone happened to make better wine than what was served the guests initially. Better "grape juice?"Hardly.
Then there's this:Rom 14:21 "[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to DRINK WINE, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."
Obviously, the "weaker brother" is offended by wine drinking of the alcoholic kind. Does this not imply that the "stronger brother" in the faith sees no offense, has liberty to drink, but abstains for the sake of the weaker brother?
enough already wrote:Alcohol is a drug; let's ask this, is it okay to smoke pot, crack, crystal meth, shoot up heroin, smoke cigarettes, etc. as long as it is done in moderation?
btw I'm a baptist and we don't drink that said however if I was in a country with poluted water I would thankfully drink wine in moderation rather than poluted water.
With the Love of Christ
enough already wrote:Friend, to your comment, I say AMEN.This verse is of importance, "For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes" Luke 22:18This is a reference to offspring, what was brought forth on the vine, the fruit, thus, it's juice. This obviously was not fermented drink. Why do so many insist the bible contradicts? If God speaks out against drinking wine, which He does repeatedly, for example, Isaiah 5:22, "Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and champions at mixing drinks", then how could He possibly ever condone it?
Now let me ask another question? Is marital intimacy in marriage right? holy? a great blessing of God? Are you absolutely sure?....I think you probably already know what I am getting at that even as eating a piece of broiled fish is in itself not a sin, it could be if it was stolen, or the umpteenth piece in a gluttonous binge.
Perhaps there is more to consider Biblically before we can have a clear Biblical understanding....for those who think even wine in moderation is sin please do not drink against your conscience.
Derek wrote:I gaurantee it's not the Holy Spirit telling you to give in to the appearance of evil and buy poison (because that is really what it is - poison)
Psalm 105:13 He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works. He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
Judges 9:11 Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Grape juice does not maketh glad the heart, and does not cheereth God and man!
This verse is of importance, "For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes" Luke 22:18This is a reference to offspring, what was brought forth on the vine, the fruit, thus, it's juice. This obviously was not fermented drink. Why do so many insist the bible contradicts? If God speaks out against drinking wine, which He does repeatedly, for example, Isaiah 5:22, "Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and champions at mixing drinks", then how could He possibly ever condone it?
DJC49 wrote:_____Always?I don't think so, Derek.Mat 13:33 "Another parable spake he unto them; The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS LIKE UNTO LEAVEN, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."_____Also, Derek, remember that Jesus Himself made wine for the wedding feast at Cana. And please don't try telling me that this wine was unfermented grape juice. Not for a WEDDING FEAST, it wasn't.Ecc 10:19 "A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry ..."The governor of the feast declared that the wine which Jesus made was good -- actually better than the wine served at the first. Perhaps this governor didn't know the difference between wine and grape juice? Or perhaps this governor was a "grape juice connoisseur."
Derek wrote:And leven (yeast) in the Bible was ALWAYS a type of sin, ...
Always?I don't think so, Derek.
Mat 13:33 "Another parable spake he unto them; The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS LIKE UNTO LEAVEN, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."
_____
Also, Derek, remember that Jesus Himself made wine for the wedding feast at Cana. And please don't try telling me that this wine was unfermented grape juice. Not for a WEDDING FEAST, it wasn't.
Ecc 10:19 "A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry ..."
The governor of the feast declared that the wine which Jesus made was good -- actually better than the wine served at the first. Perhaps this governor didn't know the difference between wine and grape juice? Or perhaps this governor was a "grape juice connoisseur."
Remember, the Bible talks about wine in the cluster. So wine doesn't always refer to a liquid, or fermented.
And leven (yeast) in the Bible was always a type of sin, which is why it was not allowed in offerings and sacrifices. We are all (if we're saved) priests and kings unto God...so I wonder what restrictions we should put on ourselves. I gaurantee it's not the Holy Spirit telling you to give in to the appearance of evil and buy poison (because that is really what it is - poison)
