"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph. 4:8-16
To forsake those whom God has called is foolish!
Michael Hranek wrote:Alan HWhich them?
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:15-20
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11
Alan H wrote:No need or use for these writings? What? Can they not lead men to Christ? Cannot the Holy Spirit use them as the instrument of someone's salvation?
Here might be a consideration when we read religious authors?
Do they show they have actually been in the Word of God and listened to what God says and live in obedience to it?
Do they have a genuine testimony of conversion of salvation from sin or merely a religious conversion of joining a religion and reforming their bad habits?
Do they show the heart of the Father that the lost be saved and not perish or merely that their readers join their religion of adopt their religious ideas?
CH Spurgeon I think would qualify as one men might greatly benefit in listening to, some of the so called church fathers could be an entirely different matter.
"And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him —for the saying of the woman—, which testified, He told me all that ever I did. So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. And many more believed —because of his own word—; And said unto the woman, —Now we believe, not because of thy saying—: ——for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world——." Joh 4:39-42
Interesting! It seems that there are two different types of faith mentioned in this account. Perhaps the first being only historical, "leading to Christ," and the latter being saving, "being from Christ." Any comments?
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14
No need or use for these writings? What? Can they not lead men to Christ? Cannot the Holy Spirit use them as the instrument of someone's salvation?
Linklater wrote:GOD also statesJohn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil......
being in the world AND NOT OF IT
of taking the gospel of Jesus Christ, of preaching the Word of God, the Scriptures to sinners AND TAKING THE WORLD'S FALSE RELIGIOUS IDEAS OF GOD INTO THE CHURCH, and into ones own life.
Don't forget if you seek to be friends WITH the world you make yourself an enemy of God.
Besides have you forgotten Jesus told those who followed Him to pray "....lead us NOT INTO TEMPTATION"? This would certainly apply to reading and accepting the writings of any religious writer without testing the spirits to see whether or not they are of God, and of examining everything carefully and to hold fast to that which is good.
Michael Hranek wrote:For example if you were practising discernment you would well know that God Himself tells us not to be bound together with unbelievers
Don't you trust GOD, to preserve you Michael?
If you ever evangelise in this world, don't forget you will speak to the unsaved sinner, in his natural estate at enmity with God. You will find these kinds of sinner going to all denominations, including yours.
The true Christian can go wherever the Spirit leads.....BecauseEphesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Linklater wrote:Yes the Church should be discerning in it's library, but to reject all the writings of previous centuries is a stupid thing to suggest.The Holy Spirit especially uses "means" of grace filled men, theologians etc, whose service included written exposition and exegesis of Scripture.
For example if you were practising discernment you would well know that God Himself tells us not to be bound together with unbelievers (Roman Catholics would qualify here with their different "god" CCC 841 same one as the Muslims, their different lifeless piece of bread idol, their baby jesus needs his mother (actually a demononic impersonation of Mary) to save sinners after an imaginary purgatory and of course their different cursed gospel (think baptismal regeneration and works to merit God's grace)
but to come out from among them and be separate unto the Lord.
Michael Hranek wrote:The bottom line to my post is that we need the Word of God, the Bible, not the Bible plus 'church fathers', philopsophers, 'christian psychatrists', nor popular Christian........
1Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Thus GOD uses "means" to communicate and teach HIS Word and doctrine. Whether that "means" is spoken, written or recorded in previous times - GOD uses means.
Yes the Church should be discerning in it's library, but to reject all the writings of previous centuries is a stupid thing to suggest.The Holy Spirit especially uses "means" of grace filled men, theologians etc, whose service included written exposition and exegesis of Scripture.
Michael Hranek wrote:The bottom line to my post is that we need the Word of God, the Bible, not the Bible plus 'church fathers', philopsophers, 'christian psychatrists', nor popular Christian(?) fantasy.It is serious sin against Christ to make it out like someone cannot possibly be an obediend faithful follower of Christ unless they are circumcised, oops I sorry, unless they join the Masonic Lodge, oops, unless they also study Augustine et all, maybe even John MacArthur, as if somehow Scripture and the Holy Ghost isn't sufficient in the life of a child of God.
It is serious sin against Christ to make it out like someone cannot possibly be an obediend faithful follower of Christ unless they are circumcised, oops I sorry, unless they join the Masonic Lodge, oops, unless they also study Augustine et all, maybe even John MacArthur, as if somehow Scripture and the Holy Ghost isn't sufficient in the life of a child of God.
Linklater wrote:During the period from Christ's ministry till the 16th century, what was known as the Roman Catholic church, was not completely wrong in its doctrine and teaching. Augustine for example ...
Roman Catholicism is False Apostate with a Cursed False Gospel don't you know the Devil believes there is One God and trembles? Did the Holy Spirit move DESPITE the false Roman Catholic Religion in the lives of some individuals? Can you sometimes find edible food in a garbage can? Yes! And many were persecuted for believing God and not bowing to Rome.
The bottom line to my post is that we need the Word of God, the Bible, not the Bible plus 'church fathers', philopsophers, 'christian psychatrists', nor popular Christian(?) fantasy.
Michael Hranek wrote:Are you trying to change the story you are telling? Are you upset with me that I might see something wrong with exalting people such as Augustine who is exalted by the false Roman Catholic Religion, who use his teachings among others to justify much in what they have in their false religion? Are you unable to discern that over the centuries "churches" have moved and departed from what God Himself teaches and commands in Scripture moving more and more into the teachings of religious men and then of philosophers to where today they have moved into the teaching of "religous" celebrities and even anti-Bible mystics?
The Holy Spirit was at work then as now revealing the truth to many.
The idea that we must reject everything written, under the denominational umbrella of RCC, during that 1500 years is an erroneous one.
NB. A "false teacher" is only acceptable if 'most' of what he produces is actually correct.
Aidan McDowell wrote:MurrayA:I found your Web site. The next time my wife and I go to Thailand (we have relatives there), I think I'd like to stop in Australia just to talk to you. Where do I find you?Cordially
Let me know when you intend to arrive, and I'll come to meet the plane.
I live at:12 Hazel Vale Rd.,Tecoma,Victoria 3160Ph. (03) 9752.6848 I look forward to a time of fellowship should this eventuate.
Michael Hranek wrote:MurrayA"The great champions of orthodoxy of the fourth century such as Athanasius, the Cappadocians, and then AUGUSTINE dominate the period..."Are you trying to change the story you are telling?
Are you trying to change the story you are telling?
The Cappadocians managed to explain to the Greek mindset the truth of the Trinity, so as to avoid Sabellianism on one hand, and the notion of hierarchicalism in the Persons of the Godhead on the other. We are in their debt for their success in this endeavour.
Augustine's great contributions are manifold:His Confessions stand as one of the classics of Christian autobiography and stories of pilgrimage to faith. John Owen, the Puritan, made extensive use of it in his writings to illustrate the operations of Divine grace.His De Trinitate is one of the classics of Christian theology, which is still studied as a prime text on the TrinityDe Civitate Dei (The City of God) gives a perspective on the rise and fall of nations, the true nature of the church (the familiar distinction between visible and invisible church traces back to the Civitate), and a philosophy of history.
Let's suppose that we ignore the writings of the Church Fathers as you suggest, do you suppose Rome will finally bury the writings in her vast libraries? Many things written by the early teachers within the church were written to refute the errors of their days. Few of those errors have sunk into oblivion. Many are being resurrected because of ignorance. Are we so enlightened in our generation that we need not the knowledge of those who both suffered to learn and learned to suffer for the sake of the truths they embraced. Micheal, Christianity did not begin with us and it may not end with us. If we despise our first beginnings error will soon be triumphant; the superstition of Rome will again bind the consciences of men in spiritual slavery. Mark my words, error is prevailing and it is because there is a tearing down of the very structure of the church. Those who strip the walls of paint and plaster will be the first to tear down the supports; then what? The Scriptures are the plumb line and all is to be tested by that standard alone, but the Scripture never condemns that which agrees with itself, but, Michael, you do. Odd Michael... Whose side are you on?
Go ahead, defend the Scriptures and oppose the truth that agrees with it; you deceive yourself!
MurrayA wrote:These were the people I had in mind, but you with your poisoned mind see all manner of bugs under the rug in my remarks. Well, that is your problem.
Are you trying to change the story you are telling? Are you upset with me that I might see something wrong with exalting people such as Augustine who is exalted by the false Roman Catholic Religion, who use his teachings among others to justify much in what they have in their false religion? Are you unable to discern that over the centuries "churches" have moved and departed from what God Himself teaches and commands in Scripture moving more and more into the teachings of religious men and then of philosophers to where today they have moved into the teaching of "religous" celebrities and even anti-Bible mystics?
Perhaps my mind is not nearly as poisoned as you accuse me of only wary and rightfully so of things so common and accepted in churches (ex Christian Psychiatry???) that they are believed without any Biblical discernment.
As to the early Christians, many of them suffered excruciating tortures and death for their faith in Christ. Have you not read of Polycarp of Smyrna, Blandina of Lyons, Perpetua and Felicitas of North Africa, Cyprian of Carthage, and the numerous martyrs of the Diocletian persecution? These stories still inspire the Christian reader, even if those times seem remote.Then Athanasius of Alexandria stood for the full Deity of Christ in a time when it seemed most of the church wanted to ditch it. Have you read that story?
These were the people I had in mind, but you with your poisoned mind see all manner of bugs under the rug in my remarks. Well, that is your problem.
MurrayA wrote:Whom Christ exalts let no man __________ demean.
For example Rick Warren has a "successful" megachurch built on pleasing the world and there are many "evangelicals" and religious celebrities who would claim his success is all of God. But is it?
Then there is Roman Catholicism itself, whom many would imagine is blest by God, it is the largest and richest denomination by far, but is that the truth or is it that Roman Catholicism 'blest' by the god of this world?
What about C.S. Lewis and Narnia. It is making a lot of money and is so popular with groups such as Focus on the Family surely there is nothing wrong with 'Christian Psychiatry' and religious fantasy or is there?
Just because someone even these so called church fathers are popular doesn't mean that Christ has exalted them, and if He hasn't who has, and if those who profess to be Christians lack the discernment do you begin to want to take a guess who will be leading them or should I say misleading them?
btw if they are not of God they will not be in heaven no matter how popular they are nor how many religious people studyied their teachings.
