Protestantissues.com
The Biblical manner for executing a murderer is at the lowest level of government, and it is done by the people involved (witnesses) in the crime or by the people affected by the crime. When a nameless, faceless court and jury of people who know nothing about the murderer or the case (the only way you can be on that jury) make the decision, it is far from following the Biblical model.
Your Post"Yes, Genesis 9:6 very much applies here. It seems ironic to me that we still apply God's command about animals that kill men, but not God's command given at the same time about men that commit murder. (Let's get something clear, the 6th commandment prohibits murder, not killing. That is according to the Hebrew. Besides, to prohibit killing WOULD prohibit the punishment God Himself defined for murder.) That does not make it our personal job to perform the penalty. That is government's DUTY. (Yes, I would be the executioner without guilt or remorse if that was my job and the executions were ordered as the result of a justice-seeking judicial system.)" __"The thoughts and intents of the heart…" We are what we believe. That which is concealed in our bosom is what we will be judged by on that great day. Sins we endorse and condone make us guilty of those sins.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword… and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he…
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
In the love of Jesus Christ our LordAbigail
"the law is not made for a righteous person"
Who was the law made for?
"...for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers..."
1 Timothy 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." (Rom 13:3-4)
The world rulers of today are a terror to good works, but that does not change the position of the saints.
For the Christians:
Love your enemiesLove your neighbor as yourselfReturn good for evilAs ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. I send you forth as lambs among wolvesBe ye harmless as dovesRender no man evil for evilOvercome evil with goodVengeance is mine saith the LordTurn the other cheekBlessed are the peacemakers
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
1 John 3:14-16 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Your point is well taken; however, what if your child or other familymember were brutally murdered???
I will never claim to have not hadevil thoughts and even evil sins butif I murder someone, I deserve to die.Of course, it has to be determinedthat is is MURDER
"Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’"
Ezekiel 33:19-20 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
I support the death penalty for all first degree murder cases, but think that it cannot applied when the evidence is limited to one person's testimony.
Hey Servetus, come here, I got something to show you...
"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine." (I Tim 1:9-11)
But when Jesus Christ came, and called out the Saints -- holy, harmless, blameless followers of Himself, we are not under the Law with its rituals and curses. We have been born into a Kingdom that is not of this world. Jesus revoked (for his followers)punishment of evil doers with His command of love for our enemies, love for our neighbors, love for the saints. While the world will continue to war and fight, kill and be killed, the Saints are not to be a part of the evil.
Turn the other cheek, resist not evil, be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.
Good point about the recency of professional police forces. In pre-modern England though, I understand criminals were apprehended by "hue & cry" and arraigned before the local Justice of the Peace, the English not entrusting petty law enforcement to militia or regular soldiers, who were generally feared or despised (often w/ good reason). A similar pattern existed in early America. This highlights the police powers delegated to civilians in English law.
Roman soldiers indeed had police powers, evidenced in Scripture by John's admonition to the soldiers, "...neither accuse any falsely", which makes little sense in a purely military context. See also Paul's treatment in Jerusalem, Acts 22.
Anyway, the thrust of the quite legitimate analogy is that the civil government has been vested by God with the power to control crime, restrain evil, to be "a terror to the evildoer" (Rom.13:3). The means granted are force, coercion, threats of punishment, the power of the sword (Rom.13:4).
This applies both to internal criminal activity, and to aggression from without. A point to remember is that enforcement of this task of civil government as a terror to the evildoer has historically been entrusted in practice to the soldier. The distinction between the soldier and policeman is a modern one, which came in, as far as the English-speaking world is concerned, during the nineteenth century (Sir Robert Peel and his "Peelers").
The same "power of the sword", which belonged to the soldier in times past, belongs now to the policeman and penal authorities, and to the soldier too.
Virtually all commentators on Romans 13 that I have read will admit that the "sword" in v.4 is the sword of capital punishment. It is only modern abolitionist sentiment which would deny it.
What about the family of say a murdered child who will never see their child again. In the UK we have too many murderers released who do what... murder again. The absolute correct punishment for murder is the death penalty therefore no opportunity to murder again. The muderer has still an opportunity for repentance BEFORE facing the ultimate eternal punishment-so there is mercy prior to the fulfilling of justice. The thief on the cross who received Christ also accepted his own crucifixtion 'the due reward of our deeds' Luke 23. 41
Undoubtedly secular gov't is very likely to abuse its "sword," yet it is still legitimate in principle.
In warfare, both sides have access to the switch. Under capital punishment, only one side does. Not really similar, even writ large.
btw, not opposed to capital punishment per se, just wondering what it is that secular government, which does not value life all that much, bases life for life judgements upon.
Fine then; let us abolish the military on that basis. What is warfare but a form of capital punishment, writ large?
