Do not really have a new relationship with sin and still want to be in the Light as well as take part in darkness.
If a genuine saint in Christ who has believed the gospel can be lost....then the Father cannot answer Jesus' prayer.
I call it preservation of the saints and Jude speaks very clear on it:
"To them that are sanctified by God the father and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ and called."
"Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
We are preserved and kept from falling by the grace of God in Jesus Christ! Soli Deo Gloria! Glory to God Alone!
I agree with you on this. Our standing before God does not depend on us. True.
I've missed our debates, and hope you are well and content with life. Maybe if I can get this mobile broadband sorted out, I'll be able to come back on line. Only have a short time today, sad to say.
Past: Justification - I have been saved from the penalty of sins past.
Future: Glorification - I will be saved from the prescence of sin in an eternal heaven.
Present: I am being saved from the power of sin here on earth.
You can lose present tense salvation, it is called backsliding. People lose the power over sin that they were once delivered from. Does that mean that they lose access to an eternal heaven? Who cares! If we are backslidden our only desire should be to return to Christ today, not on whether or not we can continue in sin. OSAS is a humanistic question, because it is only concerned with our eternal destiny, and not the glory which Christ should receive from our life today.
It is GOD, "IN" Christ, "BY" The Holy Ghost imparting Grace to us that we might SEE WITH TRUE SIGHT LIVING OUT HIS WORD.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.
64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him.
65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.
66 After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him.
67 Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away? [And do you too desire to leave Me?]
68 Simon Peter answered, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words (the message) of eternal life.
Veritas Vincit !!!
KK
Other people seem to mention that Grace is the free gift of God. Is there a verse that clearly states this?___
No! Grace is an attribute of God that is showcased in this present age. It is the operative principle of God, coupled with mercy and motivated by God's love for the world and his desire to save us, which IS his free gift. Ep 2:8.
He had already proven us guilty and had written a history of humanity that covered the beginning to Christ, a period of 4000 years as evidence that every single man and woman had sinned, with or without knowledge of his law, and therefore because they had violated his law and their conscienceness of right and wrong, God had pronounced them all sinners and condemned them to the second death, the lake of fire. But Jesus Christ came, lived without sin, and paid the penalty for us and in our place WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS! He died for the ungodly.He has taken away the penalty of sin for all those who will accept the pardon. His righteousness is what he is giving and what God will accept. He does not require our righteousness. He has already proven that we have none of our own. His righteousness is HIS SPIRIT and is HIS life which is given to us and I do have verses for that. Our standing before God does not depend on us!
Other people seem to mention that Grace is the free gift of God. Is there a verse that clearly states this? Rom 4:14 & 5:2 state that one needs faith to have access into the grace in which we stand, and Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace enables us to live godly lives now, in this age. In Eph 2:8 both grace and faith are feminine, and "that" is neuter, so "that" - the gift of God should not refer to either grace or faith in that verse.I am not trying to be offensive, but I am trying to get over a pastor who preached that he sinned every day and "so do you" (to the congregation), and I consider that to be a blasphemous statement against God's word and his character. If we are now "in Christ" we have been set free and are no longer a slave to sin (John 8:34-36, Rom 6:18). I don't wish to make a personal attack on anyone, so sorry if I offened anybody. I am just trying to follow Him and understand His word. I believe God still takes sin very seriously.
Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one (That would be Adam) many be dead (many in this case is all), much more the grace of God, and the gift (The gift is the Holy Spirit who is life) by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many (The many in this case is all).
Ro 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many (The many in this case is all) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (The many in this case are the ones who receive the gift) be made righteous.
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord
V 21 says nothing about a man keeping himself righteous. It says grace rules now through righteousness (of Christ).
Here is the case of the believer with the gift of the Spirit:
Ro 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Follower of Messiah wrote:People go to hell because they sin against God, not because of anything that happened to them "in Adam". People read more into Rom 5 than Paul meant to say. Jerome's Latin Vulgate is the book that added "in Adam" to scripture. It is not in the Greek.
In Rom.5:12ff the phrase "through one" or "through the one" occur frequently, and the reference is clearly to Adam, who is named in v.14. In contrast Christ is the Second Adam, or "the last Adam" is 1 Cor.15:45. He is the new Federal head of, and embodies the new humanity, just as Adam was the federal head of the original humanity which fell into sin.
In 1 Cor.15:22 the phrase "in Adam" is clearly in the Greek, and there is NO manuscript evidence which suggests its exclusion - none whatever. I don't know where you get your anecdote about Jerome from, but it's certainly apocryphal.
16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: ***but he that ""doeth"" the will of God abideth for ever***.
There are many who are ignorant of THE TRUTH of the deceitfulness of sin !!!
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant...
Read 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 in your Holy Bible !!!
1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth ***take heed*** lest he fall.
Amplified 10:12) Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands [who feels sure that he has a steadfast mind and is standing firm], ***take heed*** lest he fall [into sin].
Jas 1:14) ... every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth ***death***.
16) ***Do not*** err, my beloved brethren.
Those who insistently disregard THE MANY WARNINGS TO BELIEVERS are teachers of a false gospel.
"IN" Christ, KK
I am sorry you don't have a bible that you can believe but the fact that you don't is adding terrible confusion to your understanding.
God is dealing with salvation and it's character in Romans. He is doing it in the context of a courtroom scene with God himself the holy and righteous judge of all the earth and he is judging by his standard, which is righteousness as it is expressed in his law. In his court he has found all of us guilty and has passed sentence on us. However, because he is not only a just judge he is also a loving, gracious, and merciful judge and so he himself has provided a means by which we can be pardoned WITHOUT VIOLATING HIS RIGHTEOUS CHARACTER. He would pay the penalty of our sins himself and then offer pardon to all who would just receive it. (and whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely).
He must explain in detail how he is able to do this lest he be be charged with violating his own righteousness and so we have the bible, the story of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, living without sin, experiencing death for us all, and then breaking the rule of death over us by coming up out of the grave. The penalty has been satisfied in the person of his son. Not guilty is the verdict now for all who will come to God thru Christ!
There is much disagreement it seems on this doctrine but allow me to advance a thought here.
The Scriptures teach that all that are "in Adam" sin because they do not have any power against it and sin reigns as king. See Ro 5. Therefore the Scriptures says, "For as in Adam all die, even so "in Christ" all shall be made alive."
Now, the wages of sin is death we are told and men who are in Adam go to hell. So, lets reason this out a little. To be in Adam means that one is born into his family by a physical birth and we have all experienced that birth. I will assume you will accept this as true without me having to prove it.
So, lets reason this out. A person who is in Christ has been born into his family and he is the head and the birth is a spiritual birth. Now, who were born into his family? Yes, right, sinners! They were actually sinners and under the condemnation of God WHEN THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST!
Now, this is a reanonable question. If God was going to condemn them because of sin, why save them in the first place?
If by one man all who were born of him are declared sinners even though they might do some righteousness, why can't all who were born of Christ be declared righteous though they do some sins?
Have you read Romans 5?
Casob wrote:__That is silly! In the parable they are all sheep. It is just that some are his sheep and they are the sheep that hear his voice. If that were not so, the parable would not make sense. They are his sheep because they came to him and believed in him and chose him as their shepherd. I am silly? For refusing to see sheep choosing shepherds? Babies adopting parents? The lost choosing their Redeemer? The dead choosing the one who would raise them up again?I must be silly! I always thought the Shepherd chose the sheep, the parents chose the child for adoption and the redeemer could only redeem what was his to begin with. As for the dead, well, that issue has never been resolved on this forum has it?Silly me!
I am silly? For refusing to see sheep choosing shepherds? Babies adopting parents? The lost choosing their Redeemer? The dead choosing the one who would raise them up again?
I must be silly! I always thought the Shepherd chose the sheep, the parents chose the child for adoption and the redeemer could only redeem what was his to begin with. As for the dead, well, that issue has never been resolved on this forum has it?
Silly me!
Casob wrote:The reason the sheep hear is because they are sheep. God has given them ears to hear, eyes to see and hearts to understand.__That is silly! In the parable they are all sheep. It is just that some are his sheep and they are the sheep that hear his voice. If that were not so, the parable would not make sense. They are his sheep because they came to him and believed in him and chose him as their shepherd.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
The elect drawn by God to Christ "HEAR" whereas the others do NOT/cannot hear.
Effectual Calling
"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God"
"Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved"
(WCF chap 10)
That is silly! In the parable they are all sheep. It is just that some are his sheep and they are the sheep that hear his voice. If that were not so, the parable would not make sense. They are his sheep because they came to him and believed in him and chose him as their shepherd. Read John 6 here.
(He is really talking about Israelites, who are people, wink, wink)
The reason the sheep hear is because they are sheep. God has given them ears to hear, eyes to see and hearts to understand. The difference between the two is that all are taught by men but only the sheep are taught of God."Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but My Father in heaven."
Many listen to the word and don't obey it. Were we not chosen unto good works, prepared for us from the foundation of the world? What are good works if not obedience to the commandments of God?
Obedience is faith in action. Israel could not enter in because of unbelief. This unbelief was manifested in their rebellion, ie, their disobedience.
The reason why some fall away from the faith is that they were never of the faith to begin with. They were like the Jews in John 8; they believed Jesus but His word did not abide in them. Believers they were but only on an intellectual level. They were not sheep so they were never true believers.
