"Your statement about dead "sincere" devout religious persons capabilities reminds me of the Reformers' actions towards those that disagreed with their doctrines—the murderous spirit they displayed towards those that opposed them."
That's the spirit... discredit my argument based on scripture by associating me with dark events that took place 500 years ago.
Scripture states...
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
How can an you possible carry on a discussion about Paul's spiritual death unless you can comprehend this passage by knowing what the commandment was and when it came? All you are doing is throwing out your reasoning based on your presuppositions which has a worth of absolutely nothing because your appeal is not to the final authority. You wrote:
"He is not speaking of himself only, but allegorically of the whole human race."
Really? And just how did you come to this conclusion?
I'm not interested in a conversation of this tenor for it is clear that you do exactly what you accuse others of doing when in a pinch; that is you will twist, massage, explain away or ignore any scripture that condemns free moral agency. Your problem is not with me but the whole counsel of God.
"Why do you feel the need to explain away what Paul clearly admitted.... he was D E A D in trespass and sin until Jesus granted him mercy. No free will decision on his part. _____
Your statement about dead "sincere" devout religious persons capabilities reminds me of the Reformers' actions towards those that disagreed with their doctrines—the murderous spirit they displayed towards those that opposed them.
How do you explain that Paul was ALIVE WITHOUT THE LAW until the commandment came? Dead men do not revive and die again. How did the Law slay him? Although Jesus Christ supernaturally revealed Himself to Paul, Paul most assuredly did use his free will to accept and follow the Lord Jesus Christ unto death.
Sin is transgression of the law. Paul was not living when the Law was given hundreds of years before his birth. He is not speaking of himself only, but allegorically of the whole human race. He is stating that the commandments of the Law of Moses could not make anyone perfect, nor could the sacrifices of the blood of bulls and goats. Moreover, he is saying that without the indwelling Spirit, humanity does not have the ability to live a just and holy life, but that Jesus Christ is the deliverer from wretched self, sin, and Satan.
In the love of Jes
Abigail wrote:Paul was sincere with God, though wrong. He was not acquainted with the Lord Jesus Christ until the Damascus experience. He was devout and was serving God to the best of his ability with the knowledge that he possessed. That is the reason God chose Him for the ministry, and he was a faithful, obedient slave unto Christ from his conversion to his martyrdom. What a wonderful saint and dear brother in Christ. How glorious it would be to see men like him today in this age of apostasy. Spiritual is close!!
"How glorious it would be to see men like him today in this age of apostasy. Spiritual is close!!"
Spiritual promotes and publishes heresy. The fact that you see him as being above reproach evidences your own want of spiritual discernment. To suggest that he is on a plain almost equal with the Apostle Paul is frightening to say the least.
"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." 2Co 11:14, 15
"...transforming themselves..." vs 13
Abigail wrote:Paul was sincere with God, though wrong. He was not acquainted with the Lord Jesus Christ until the Damascus experience. He was devout and was serving God to the best of his ability with the knowledge that he possessed.
No one is asking you to believe reformed theology but the least you could do is recognize the scriptures which establishes it and give them fair and honest treatment. If you were wise you would take all your observations about Paul and everything his epistles teach about his life before Damascus Road and realize what a spiritually dead "sincere" "devout" religious person is capable of doing while at enmity with God.
Paul was sincere with God, though wrong. He was not acquainted with the Lord Jesus Christ until the Damascus experience. He was devout and was serving God to the best of his ability with the knowledge that he possessed. That is the reason God chose Him for the ministry, and he was a faithful, obedient slave unto Christ from his conversion to his martyrdom. What a wonderful saint and dear brother in Christ. How glorious it would be to see men like him today in this age of apostasy. Spiritual is close!!
In the love of Jesus Christ with prayersAbigail
Thanks to you and Yamil for giving us "calvs" examples of the "methods of debate" real Christians employ. God must be well pleased.
Weapon of Mass Instruction wrote:Thanks Lurker for demonstrating to us how none of the Scriptures you quoted state that the mind is dead.I knew that I can always count on you to show the scriptural bankruptcy of the Calvinist position.
We have two constrasting styles from the calvs in the persons of Seaton and Lurker. Both are committed calvs but Seaton will hardly ever advance his own thoughts but will always cut and paste from someone elses comments. Almost all calvs trend towards Seatons method and I suspect it is because they do not want to appear foolish like Lurker often does by referencing passages because of a certain key word and by completely ignoring context and thus proof texting with verses that have nothing in common. This can be embarrassing at times.
Yhe calvs methods of debate on this forum reveals a bankrupt theology.
Abigail wrote:Paul was a very devoted and obedient Pharisee. According to the Law, he was perfect—he was serving God and keeping his laws.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. (Rom 7:9-11)
Now all you need to do is determine what "the commandment" is and when it came. You're a free moral agent... surely you can figure that out.
Are you saying that none of the OT Saints could call on God because they were dead? They were not born again!
Paul was a very devoted and obedient Pharisee. According to the Law, he was perfect—he was serving God and keeping his laws.
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: (Phi 3:4)
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a **Hebrew of the Hebrews**; as touching the law, a Pharisee; (Phi 3:5)
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the **righteousness which is in the law, blameless**. (Phi 3:6)
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. (Phi 3:7)
God revealed the truth of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant to him on the Damascus Road.
No Scriptures prove that humanity is not a free moral agent and that grace is irresistible. The Sovereignty of God is not diminished because He created humanity with free will, nor because Satan captivates by his free will strategies.
Humanity in his fallen state has no inclination towards God. This is seen in heathen countries where the inhabitants are engulfed in all manner of evils with no feeling of guilt or condemnation. The preaching of the gospel is the method ordained by God to bring light to the souls in darkness. Once the light has shined into their dark hearts, the Spirit does its work and their conscience begins to stir as they feel the dreaded hand of God in eternal judgment upon their souls.
Satan has a stronghold on souls walking in darkness. Because of sin, they are blinded to the truth. All the aspects of salvation are a miracle. Only God can bring a sinner into the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and His atoning blood. God uses His ministers of reconciliation to proclaim the glorious good news and the Spirit does the work.
I knew that I can always count on you to show the scriptural bankruptcy of the Calvinist position.
Derek wrote:It is interesting that the mind is at enmity with God, but not dead.
Paul realized his evil doings only after Christ called him in mercy on Damascus Road removing the scales of unbelief from his eyes:
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, ***who hath enabled me***, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: ***but I obtained mercy***, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for ***a pattern*** to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. (1 Tim 1:12-16)
Lurker wrote:Cute, Yamil... but I'd suggest you keep your day job as a hireling. You'll never be able to feed your family as a comedian.
Abigail - you are right. It is interesting that the mind is at enmity with God, but not dead. It was Paul who, when struggling with the flesh, ended up realinzing that the way to victory over the flesh was a changed mind. He said in Romans 7:25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.And also in Romans 12:2 it saysAnd be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed, by the renewing of your mind...
Although both cases were dealing tiwh saved people, the very word Repent has the meaning to Change your Mind, or simply, Agree with God.
I know this will give many some ammo to shoot back with
Obviously you are unable to perceive that Acts 7:51 in the death knell to free will theism. Unless God gives eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to perceive (Deut 29:4) the spiritually dead will "always resist the Holy Ghost".
Ya'll come back again when you can hear and we'll pay our vows by offering the sacrifice of praise together.
Until that time....
2 Cor 6:14
Lurker wrote:Yes.... by the reprobate (Acts 7:51).No..... by the elect (John 6:39).
The Calvinist handbook wrote:"The Holy Spirit is irrisitible."
Acts 7:51 wrote:"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, YE DO ALWAYS RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
The dehvastating truth is that NO WHERE in the Bible does it state that the Holy Spirit is irrisistible.
Now is the reader suppose to accept a simple declarative statement from God's word or is he suppose to make sense out of your convulted, redefining, revisionist, who-cares-about-the-laws-of-language, reinterpretation?
Ok. I'm ready for your itchty-twitchy dance now.....
It works all the time.
Your post makes no sense. Being spiritually dead and physically dead are two entirely different things. When Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were not physically dead when they were expelled from the Garden of Eden.
Being dead in trespasses and sins means the person has not been born again—has not received ETERNAL LIFE, which is the gift that Jesus Christ offered by His death on the cross. However, they have their cognizance about themselves—they have a conscience—they have the ability to perceive right from wrong.
The carnal mind is the natural mind. Even though the carnal mind is at enmity with God, the drawing power of God works on the carnal mind to bring a change of heart that results in repentance and acceptance of the Savior's atoning blood.
Wayne M. wrote:Alan H,In your post to Derek, I noticed you said "it is very evident that if any man neglects the use of those means which God has ordained for the sinner's salvation he will not be saved..."I am curious what means you are referring to.
In your post to Derek, I noticed you said "it is very evident that if any man neglects the use of those means which God has ordained for the sinner's salvation he will not be saved..."
I am curious what means you are referring to.
"But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay [that] that I have vowed. Salvation [is] of the LORD." Jonah 2:9
There are many who will not allow this assertion to be understood absolutely, but they want to weaken it in order to add a little of their own merit, refusing to acknowledge inability.
Wayne, the Bible does speak of means, i.e. the preaching & the hearing of the Gospel, regeneration, prayer, faith, repentance, etc. We can't deny any of these things, can we? Neither can we deny our inability concerning these things without the lifegiving & effectual work of God's Spirit within us. Our inability lies not in our weakness but in our being dead. God's Spirit makes alive and enables those who were unable. "Salvation [is] of the LORD." Absolutely!!! Alpha & Omega
Goodnight!
"If you believe you can resist God then you probably do! When man is still in the natural state he is at enmity with God, therfore will resist trying to make any good spiritual decisions, iaw Scripture. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Try not to remain the enemy of God and His Son Jesus, Yamil, for your own soul if for none other. Remember the example of the Laodicean church."_____
How could the Laodicean Church be an example of your statements?
They were born again Christians that had lost sight of what Christianity is. They were backslidden. They were rich and increased with goods and thought they had need of nothing and knew not that they were naked, wretched, and blind. They lost their salvation if the didn't repent.
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