That is because the offer of the kingdom to Israel under the New Covenant was real. There is no revelation of the church before the cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. God intended to make the offer of salvation to the gentiles through a converted Israel. Because of their unbelief, they were cut off from the source of salvation, the olive tree, a tree that produces oil, a type of the Holy Spirit, and the gentile tree was grafted in where they were broken off. Those of Israel remains to this day in unbelief and the gentiles are apotasizing at an alarming rate as per the prediction in the same context.
But God was not taken by suprise and he revealed a plan he had conceived before the creation to take those of Israel who would believe and those of the gentiles who would believe and make them his children by birthing them into his family by the indwelling Spirit he would give them who would then baptize them into one body of whom Christ would be the head. The gentile part began to be added in Acts 10 when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the gentiles and God raised up an apostle to go to them and tell them that they could come to God through Christ!
Casob wrote:The fullness of the gentiles is the completion of the church. The gentiles will then be broken off.
Jago, I would hate to show up at the judgment to give account for those words. I know you have read my quoting of verses that say just the opposite of what you have just said which brings me to the conclusion that you either cannot read or you cannot believe.
You must remember that a thousand or mor people could possibly read your comment and you would be influencing them to not believe the words of God. this is serious!
Now, I am going to give these to you again.
What is said about Israel and the covenants:
Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
What is said about gentiles and the covenants:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Now do a word study on "partakers" as it relates to gentiles wherein God by grace has included us in the NT ble
Do you know that the "therefore" demands we go back to the previous statements to understand his conclusion. What is the theme of those statements. Right! It is the Spirit and how we receive him. It is not by works, it is by faith. The contrast is between the law with it's works and the hearing and faith. But it doesn't say we are Jews, Israel, or Jacob but that we are children of Abraham through faith in God.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The promise in Galatians is the Holy Spirit and even Jews had to receive him by faith to become the spiritual children of Abraham though they were the physical seed.
The point of these verses in Chapter 3 is to show that the addendum to the Abrahamic covenant, the law of Moses, did not negate the promise that God would bless the familes of the world and that the Moses covenant was temporary. The means though which this blessing would come would be through the promised seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ, at which time the Moses covenant would be fulfilled, having fulfilled it's purpose stated in the text.Out of room.
Now, compare these two passages.
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (this would be the church) 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this (The taking out a people from the gentiles) I will return, (to the earth) and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down See the Davidic Covenant in Psa 89: 38-45; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue (That would be the remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The fullness of the gentiles is the completion of the church. The gentiles will then be broken off.
JD, say that to a mirror, and heed your own advice (if you can).
I posted a clear statement with appeal to Gal.3:7 and 3:14. What do I get in reply? The usual statements of Dispensational dogma, replete with citations, relevant or otherwise, of Bible verses, but no real argumentation. And you tell us to "think things through"!
Waffle, waffle, waffle!
And I also posted Rom.4:13 -"2. That promise to the children of Abraham is now THE WORLD, Rom.4:13! Get it?? Who cares a twig about a sliver of land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean when we are promised the world!! And we are!"
You not only live in Dispensational fantasy land, but you live in the Old Testament world. You prattle on about the New Covenant, but you live in an Old Covenant world with your continual fussing about a revived state of Israel, and a revived temple (on that score if the temple of Ezek.40-48 was ever meant to be built, why was there no attempt to do so in the post-Exilic situation?). The New Covenant has replaced the Old - for good and all! Get with it!
Explain on.
_____
Oh ... and about John the Baptist preaching to the rulers of Israel: funny, but I don't recall John going after the leaders and rulers at all. If anything, they either came to him (out of curiosity and concern?) or sent messengers to ask him a few identity questions. Other than that, John's contact with the Jewish rulers was nothing more than him calling them a bunch of vipers. Scripture is pretty silent concerning John actually going out of his way to convince/convict Jewish rulers of anything. The Wilderness is definitely NOT the place where "National Israel's" rulers hung out.
But DO carry on, Senor Casob.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words;
29 Men and brethren,
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Messiah)
Ac 3:12 And when Peter saw [it], he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel,
Ac 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers.
This was the same order as John the Baptist had preached, first to the people (with some believing) and then the rulers (rejecting the message).
If the rulers would have accepted the New Covenant by accepting Jesus Christ, all Israel would have been saved but the message of salvation by grace through faith would have been preached to the gentiles and the church would have been built - more
For the life of me, I just can't find the word "national" (or nation, Israel, Jacob or ...) in Matthew 3! And you wanna know something else? You couldn't find any reference to Peter directly addressing the National leaders of Israel in Acts 2 or 3 either ... AS YOU CLAIMED. Am I correct? Or are you now using some comic book for a Bible instead of the KJV?
Look. The whole point of this little exercise with you is to establish the FACT that you -- an avowed literalist -- do NOT take the Scriptures literally; and much of the time you do your own little bit of "reading into" the text. Like your insistence that the unbelieving Jews in Acts 3:23 were not destroyed from among the people even though the very Word of God stated plainly that they definitely WOULD be. But YOU read into that text that they had to be destroyed IMMEDIATELY! And wanna know something else?I'm NOT holding that against you one bit, because much of the time we MUST read a little bit into the text to come to what the cold, hard words actually MEAN.
Lastly, Casob, is that, unlike you, I'm NOT going to accuse you of unbelief and doubt by your adding to the Word of God. But I AM going to accuse you of finding concepts in texts which do NOT exist.
One must remember that the religious leaders were the national leaders and spoke for the people. It was the scribes and the Pharisees that called for his crucifixion and to show how much power they had over the people, those who were crying Hosannas at the triumphal entry into Jerusalem were a few hours later crying for him to be crucified. They did not come to that mindset on their own.
All the members of the Godhead offered themselves to Israel and all 3 were rejected.
God the Father - 1 Sam 8:7God the Son - Lk 19:14God the Holy Ghost - Acts 7:51
Now, God is going to keep his covenants to this people Israel if every amil calvinist in the world stands against it and tries to prevent it. This attitude is not of God.
Okay, "Mr. Literalist" -- "Mr. Letter of the Word Man" ... Within the parameters of your excellent exegesis (cough) and superior hermeneutics (choke, gag), please provide the textual and contextual proof that Peter was addressing NATION Israel in ACTS 2 -- AS YOU STATED IN YOUR POST BELOW -- and show all where he actually stood before the National leaders and said the same thing in ACTS 3 -- AS YOU STATED IN YOUR POST BELOW. This should be rather easy duty for you. Just show the actual word: "national" this or "national" that. Or just show Peter directly addressing said National leaders by saying something like: "you leaders of Israel" or "I say this unto you rulers" or "Go tell your rulers and leaders that ..." ETC.
If I'm not mistaken, I'd say that you're doing quite a bit of eisegesis here by reading National anything into Acts 2 and Acts 3.
You might have a case when it comes to Acts 4 and beyond, however, in ALL of Acts I don't find ANYWHERE that there is a call to National ANYTHING! And mark this: there were a few of the leaders who did indeed turn to Christ.
So ... SHAME on you for your shoddy representation of the Word of God! I didn't think that playing "fast & loose" with the text was in you.
No John Darby pudding or Scofield pie for you tonight!
I reiterate, all that God is doing in the earth and will do is in view of keeping his covenants to the letter.
So, the Spirit was given and Acts 2 found Peter standing before the nation Israel when they were gathered together calling them to national repentance which meant EVERY ONE OF THEM, Acts 2:38 so the new covenant could be established in its national identity. Later, he stood before the national leaders and said the same thing in Acts 3. Ac 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. This nation must receive the New Covenant in the same way they received the old covenant before it would be established. Read Ex 19:1-8 here. For the first 7 chapters in Acts the call was to accept it and the answer was "no". The fact that it was not accepted then does not mean it will never be accepted because it will be see Rom 11:26.The rejection gave opportunity for the gentiles See Rom 11:15 here. Physical Israel was broken off because of unbelief and the gentiles grafted in but sadly, the same fate awaits the gentiles at some point in history. See Rom 11:19-25.
The "land promise" which you and all the rest of Dispyland is so fixated on has already been fulfilled (on God's part) in Solomon's day. Yet, this "fulfillent" was but typological of the ULTIMATE fulfillment which will occur at the Restitution of All Things; the Restoring of the intimate relationship between God and man which was lost at The Fall; the creation of a new heaven and a new earth; the blessed harmony of all things with God where Christ is all in all. THIS is the everlasting habitation promised to God's People -- His redeemed ones.
And there won't be any mass rebellion led by Satan at the end of 1000 years of this Restored Eden to ruin the celebration and worship!
THE problem with Dispyism is that it has things so chopped up, so divided, so compartmentalized & segregated, that it has absolutely LOST sight of the BIG PICTURE: God's promise to restore ALL things unto Himself through, in, by, and for Christ. That's the underlying theme of ALL the Covenants since Gen 3:15
1. It is the children of faith, Jews and Gentiles under the Gospel, who are now the children of Abraham (Gal.3:7), and who are all heirs of the ancient promise (Gal.3:14).___
That would be so impossible. A spiritual people (the church) cannot inherit physical blessings which is what is promised to the physical and eternal people of God that would come from Abraham and it is time to talk about this some.
He referenced 2 verses and made two points.
First: He intimates that there cannot be a physical seed of Abraham because there is now a spiritual seed. He quotes Ga 3:7. The question is; does this fly?
Second: He says that now this spiritual seed of Abraham is now the heirs of the ancient promise, but he does not say what that ancient promise is. He quotes Ga 3:14
The specific promise of the Abrahamic covenant that Paul is referencing in Ga 3 is "in thee shall all nations be blessed" 3:8. The point of the Galatians letter is to show that the blessings spoken of does not come to the church through the Mosaic covenant by works as they were being erroneously taught. It is the new covenant that promises the Spirit and he was given to the gentiles by grace through faith whereas he was offered to Israel by promise.
This does not conclude my thought.
DJC49 wrote:We know that Abraham believed in resurrection from the dead by #1. We know this because God had promised Abraham that Isaac would have descendents [Gen 17:19]; and when Abraham obeyed in faith God's command to sacrifice Isaac, he stated to his 2 servants that both he and Isaac would return [Gen 22:5] after "worshiping" God.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
So yes, he did have a knowledge that there would be a Messiah coming from his decendants contrary to Casob's belief.
He also believed that God would provide Himself a sacrifice offering. (Jehovah-Jireh)
Casob wrote:Abraham did not believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ because it had not happened but he was justified by believing God.
We know that Abraham believed in resurrection from the dead by #1. We know this because God had promised Abraham that Isaac would have descendents [Gen 17:19]; and when Abraham obeyed in faith God's command to sacrifice Isaac, he stated to his 2 servants that both he and Isaac would return [Gen 22:5] after "worshiping" God.
Keep in mind that Abraham was in the geneology of Christ and that others [Job 19:25] before him believed in a Redeemer promised by the 1st Covenant [Gen 3:15]. Seems to me that Abraham must have heard of this promised Redeemer through #2 oral tradition.
And I find it hard to imagine that Abraham didn't have an insight into the Sacrifice of Christ since he participated in the most POWERFUL OT typology of it in his "sacrifice of Isaac!"
Here are a few excerpts from this promise of God to David!
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.13 He shall build an house for my name (See Heb 3 here), and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Luke understood the Davidic covenant!
31 .. and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:3 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Casob/JD, you just don't get it at all. It's NOT a matter of faith vs. unbelief; it's a matter of a proper, responsible hermeneutic which interprets the OT in the light of the NT, and NOT the other way around. We've gone through this sooooo maaaany times! So let's just leave it there.
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