Never let the secondary standard trump the primary standard of Scripture, but as some will use a Bible Dictionary and the opinion of its author to help define a specific word or a specific topic, we have historically and logically found these tools to be aides and helps to our learning the truth. 2+2=4 is the truth in almost all areas of the world, and can be considered truth...although it is not in Scripture. Neither are a host of other truths, but they are truths as well.
Flee to the Scriptures as the great reformer Knox and others ministers, and use it as your primary standard!
Cheryl wrote:”I was thinking about the Laura Ingalls Wilder books, Little House on the Prairie, those books. Did you ever read any of them? Pa played a fiddle really well. Yet when they went to church, there was no mention of any musical instruments or of Pa being asked to accompany the hymns.”
Yes – I like those books! They are not very common in Australia but I bought some 2nd hand ones recently for my wife as she had never heard of them. I think you would have found some churches with a piano or organ even in those days; from memory they were introduced more in the 1500 - 1700’s but that may not be precise.
MSC – there is no scripture that expressly forbids using instruments in the Christian church. My point was that history clearly shows instruments were not used in mainstream Christian churches until more recent years as above. If you have to have instruments then go for it, there are far more serious issues at stake. But if the MUSIC itself starts to become something to you (as it does to many in the funky churches) then you may have a problem. In such a case music can become an idol of itself.
One point before I retire for the night.
If you are ever in Michigan, I would be very happy to visit with you and you can bring your instruments to my home. Let us together sit and sing praises to the Lord and you can play your instruments while we sing to our Lord. I do love this sort of thing and our church has these private and family/friend gatherings often. No problem.
But, when we are entering the Sabbath and we enter the Lord's Day Worship, I would ask you to join me and bring what the Lord has ordered. Let us bring before Him the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs of the Psalter in our Public Worship on His Lord's Day.
It is a special Holy Day which has been ordained by his example on the first day of the week. Although the Temple Worship has ended, and the ceremonial laws to aide our worship have been nailed to the cross, let us bring what He has inspired in the worship.
The Psalms were inspired by our Lord for His worship, and the instruments were only an aide to help our worship under the ceremonial laws. Let us now, as the Apostles and early church did, bring to the Lord His Psalter and worship him in Spirit (His Words) and in Truth (His Words).
I just saw what you wrote:
"Walt,I read those scriptures you posted at the bottom of your post. Nothing that says it's the music instruments that are the problem or caused the problem in those passages."
They are talking about how God rejects human inspired Worship, not instruments.
The instruments component in worship was introduced in the Old Testament under the ceremonial temple worship. It has been done away. It was nailed to the cross. It is finished.
Please, DO NOT bring it back into the Lord's Day Sabbath worship.
Play your instruments at home in private worship, perhaps family worship. But do not bring them into the Lord's Day Sabbath worship.
If there were left a whole bunch of Holy Days as well from the OT, then I would say DO NOT bring them into those Holy Days and Worship God, BUT, they have also been fulfilled and are gone away. It is the Lord's Day Sabbath now, and DO NOT devise PUBLIC HOLY DAYS or follow those created by Rome.
Worship the Lord in private, everyday, and separating our private and family worship from our PUBLIC worship on the Sabbath is a very important distinction.
Let us continue again soon.
May the Lord bless you and reveal to you His holy will in your life!
The Second Commandment is ALL about the Worship, adoration, love and respect for God alone!
"Q.108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his word (Deut.xxxii.46-47, Matt.xxviii.20, Acts.ii.42, 1Tim.vi.13-14); particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ (Phil.iv.6, Eph.v.20); the reading, preaching, and hearing of the word (Deut.xvii.18-19, Acts.xv.21, 2Tim.iv.2, Jam.i.21-22, Acts.x.33); the administration and receiving of the sacraments (Matt.xxviii.19, 1Cor.xi.23-30); church government and discipline (Matt.xviii.15-17, Matt.xvi.19, 1Cor.v entire, 1Cor.xii.28); the ministry and maintenance thereof (Eph.iv.11-12, 1Tim.v.17-18, 1Cor.ix.7-15); religious fasting (Joel.ii.12-13, 1Cor.vii.5); swearing by the name of God (Deut.vi.13), and vowing unto him (Isa.xix.21, Ps.lxxvi.11): as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship (Acts.xvii.16-17, Ps.xvi.4); and, according to each one’s place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry (Deut.vii.5, Isa.xxx.22)."
With all due respect, I would ask you to please not comment tonight.
You wrote:
"Excuse please, man did not invent music GOD did )"
Really, this topic is so far over your current presuppositions it really is not worth discussing. You have your views, and I would just settle them firmly in your mind and ignore this discussion.
As I have said many times, you have way too much to loose on this subject, and I would suggest you devise whatever you want in the worship of God on the Sabbath. Make any song you want? Use any instrument you want? Use any dance that makes you feel more emotional?
Stand in front of that audience, and do what makes you feel good. Also, do what makes the audience feels good. Take a poll if it helps to learn as we go further into the 21st century.
This is about you and your emotional gifts to God. If they work for you, and you think they work for God, I would just throw away the Psalter and use the inspired hymnal of Isaac Watts or any other person you like. It is about you, and I do not want to discuss it further with you.
My focus is God and what he has written.
Again, you are completely missing the point. Think and say what you want, but just because YOU FEEL that instruments are to be used in the PUBLIC WORSHIP of God, I think you are sinning! Period.
"It's not sin to play instruments. Like I said, the same Scriptures command many things and prohibit many things. Yet in that same volume music instruments are encouraged, not prohibited."
No body said it was a sin to play instruments or sing human inspired songs, but DO NOT bring them into the public worship of God.
YOU were not permitted to bring them into the OT Temple Worship, and therefore, God gave you a VERY specific list of items to bring to the Temple and Sabbath Worship. You were NOT permitted to change, or you were disobedient and you SINNED against God.
Now, in the NT, those Ceremonial Worship Laws have been discontinued, and replaced by a Lord's Day Worship and whatever God does NOT permit, He forbids.
If you do not believe me, study the first 400 years of the early Apostles and the early Church. They did not just introduce anything they wanted like today.
Are you kidding me? Rock Music? Crazy dances? Massive Organs with whole bands playing silent night? The list goes on and on.
Are YOU going to tell God what he WANTS?
"A short summary of the Regulative Principle of Worship is simply this: What Scripture does not authorize it forbids. Most churches (Romish churches, Orthodox churches, Anglican churches, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and most Reformed and Presbyterian churches) are operating on an altogether different principle from the one just stated. The principle they are operating on is: What Scripture does not forbid, it permits. Since Christ in the New Covenant has not expressly forbidden drama, dancing, candles, incense, musical instruments, uninspired hymns, crossing oneself, banners, crosses, images etc. within the house of God, the vast majority of churches today permit these (to lesser or greater degrees) and many more practices into their worship services. However, the Regulative Principle of Worship would prevent all the above practices into the worship of God because they are all without the authorization of Christ, the mediator of the New Covenant."
Here you go to the exegetical whiz kids:
"Specific biblical texts demonstrate that God abominates all human invention in worship (Gen. 4:1-15; Lev. 10:1-3; Ex. 40:16-32; Deut. 5:8-10; 1 Chron. 13:5-10; Mk. 7:1-13; Jn.4:19-24; 1 Cor. 7:23; 2 Cor. 1:24; Col. 2:8,20-23; Heb. 8:5-6; 10:1-10 etc.)."
"Walt, what your preachers say aren't necessarily infallible. The same Psalms that encourage instruments are in the same volume along with commandments. There is not commandment against them. No Apostle said that after Christ's sacrifice, no instruments are allowed."
Of course they are not infallible. No body ever said they were. It is a red herring you bible experts always use, because you quote Scripture, define Scripture, make Scripture say what you want it to say, AND THEN say, "stop, nobody can quote Scripture except for me because your words are not infallible."
It is silly, but I just listen to it over and over.
Again, let me emphasis that IT DOES NOT NEED TO COME BY DIRECT COMMAND, as you are really pushing. Scripture is taught by the following exegetical reasoning:
"Every religious practice or symbol in the worship of God’s people must have a divine warrant from God’s Word either by (1) command; or by (2) authorized example of the apostles; or by (3) good and necessary inference."
I just did below.
Did you read Q.109 below?
Yes, YOU are sinning. It is plain with all the Scripture proofs you will ever need.
However, you will ignore those Scripture proofs and will quote your own bible dictionary on the "greek means literally "pluck with a stringed instrument".
What Greek Dictionary are you using? Who wrote and defined that word?
I can assure you it does not mean that in the Scriptures, and I prefer to use the Scriptures to define the Scriptures.
Thus, please tell me the publisher of that Greek dictionary so I can look it up myself and see the presupposition of the author before I will agree to that definition.
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