Hi Keith
Thank you for your response. I admit that you had some great points, and have found myself corrected or enlightened from time to time by your comments. I am enjoying our discussions thus far and feel that they have been thought-provoking, respectful unlifting and beneficial for both of us, and I thank you for that. We are asking each good, deep questions and encouraging one another to think our beliefs and about God in a way that perhaps we would not normally do. Also, we have had patience with our differences, and that is wonderful.
You mentioned that you will send me some questions later (which is perfectly fine), and look forward to answering those. In the mean time, I wanted to through out a couple comments in response to your last email. I will wait to ask any further questions until I recieve the questions that you have for me.
COMMENTS:
1. You said, “God has not stopped leading His people by revelation. We have His revelation written for us in His Word.” That is true, you make a great point there. You are correct that scripture is God’s word and does guide us, and they are of INFINITE WORTH. I don’t believe that the Bible alone provides all guidance needed in order for us to correctly understand and worship God in unity, but does LEAD us to all truth, to God’s gospel. you are correct that ancient scripture is guidance from God.
2. To support you belief that prophets today are not necessary, you stated, “We see many periods in the history of Israel wherein God did not send the people any prophets”. That is true, another good point. In LDS belief, these are periods are periods apostasy, where God’s people reject Him, often killing the Lord’s servants (just as the apostles were killed). However, after each period of apostasy and silence from heaven, God’s people were ready, God always return to bring them back on track through revelation to a authorized prophet of God.
3. Regarding the mystery of God allowing Satan in the garden, the tree, the fall, suffering etc., you said “God has a purpose in all that He has decreed to do and to allow... even though we are bound by the flesh and unable to see His plan.” You say that you lack nothing with the revelations you have, yet you do not know God’s plan, or the why’s regarding the origin of man and sin. I believe that through revelation today, God has revealed his plan as clear as day.
4. Regarding hell (and the belief that all but a “few” will go there, including many of our loved ones), you stated, “This is one of the most difficult things I ever have to consider... I will understand this when I meet the Lord”. You also stated that you believe that God is right and good, and that he will judge rightly. I admire you faith in the goodness of God, and agree 100% that He is and does only good. However, modern revelation has offered so much light to this subject. There is a hell, but the power of Christ to redeem mankind from that hell is SO much more expansive and powerful than what many have understood. In LDS beliefs, there is ALL hope for salvation for those that have died without accepting the gospel.
5. Regarding the idea that most go to hell, you asked, “If Mormonism is true, it is in the minority among the world’s religions, yet it still demands allegiance for a person to be saved. How is it that you are not bound by the same concern for your own religion’s teachings?”. Modern revelation has brought to our knowledge one of the most beautiful, comforting, God-glorifying doctrines of the gospel: that is, that the gospel is preached to dead. This was touched on briefly in 1 Peter 3:18-21, 4:6, but confirmed and greatly clarified in modern days. The righeous Christian spirits teach the unbelievers about Christ. Althought this was not possible PRIOR to Christ’s suffering, death and resurrection ((see Luke 16), it was possible AFTER because of Christ’s victory. In the end, every single individual will have the gospel preached to them, and will have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. Also, it has been revealed that there are levels of heaven. In the end, all but a very few will be saved from an eternity in hell and inherit some level of glory/heaven, all becuase of Jesus Christ.
6. FREE WILL: Although we, mankind, are fallen, God has given us (through the powerful atonement of Jesus Christ) the freedom to choose our own destiny, to choose to accept or reject the saving atonement of Christ. It is not simply that God chooses some to be saved and some to be damned (completely apart from our own desires, choices or actions), but he teaches the gospel to all and gives all the freedom to choose. Joshua also taught his people that they themselves are to “Choose you this day whom ye will serve” (Joshua 24:15). “Turn ye unto me... and I will turn unto you” (Zach. 1:3). I think that the Book of Mormon passage is the most clear: “Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh, and all things are given them which are expedient unto men. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life through the great mediator of all blessing, or to choose captivity and death” (2 Nephi 2:27).
7. “While I will certainly grant that there was division in Christendom over issues of doctrine... there is still a strong sense of unity within the Body of Christ”. Some unity, some division, I agree, but is that the best that we can expect in the true church and kingdom of God? Were God’s doctrines, church organization and ordinances so flexible and open to interpretation in Old Testament? Was not God EXTREMELY specific and clear in his commandments and instructions to his OT saints? What about the New Testament church? The Lord said, “one Lord, faith, one baptism”. With that said, is it really acceptable that some baptize by immersion, some by sprinkling, some baptize infants, some adults only? Some churches have elders, deacons, teachers, evangelists (etc), some just by one pastor. Some ordain by the laying on of hands, some don’t. Some believe in miracles and healings today, some don’t etc. If someone doesn’t like the way a church is run, they can make themselves pastor and start their own church according to their interpretation of the Bible. Is all of this really acceptable to God? Is so much of the New Testament optional or “non-essential”? Paul taught that, “God is not the author of confusion” (1 Cor. 14:33). I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restoration of original church of Jesus Christ that He himself organized. There is one organization (with prophets, 12 apostles, elders, bishops, deacons, teachers, evangelists etc.), one form of baptism, priesthood authority, revelation from God, prophecies, miracles, priesthood authority given by the laying on of hands or ordained servants, unity etc, exactly as was the original church of the Lord.
I hope you found these comments interesting. I look forward to your questions. God bless
Jonathan Hatch
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Hi Jonathan,
I apologize for the delay in getting to the questions which I have. Some of my questions will be in regard to your recent comments. Others are based on my understanding and studies of Mormon teachings.
1. You seem to be claiming that mormonism is the completely unified church, without division or difference of doctrine. Why do we find that there is disagreement within the history of Mormonism on subjects such as the issue of polygamy (which is condemned by the church yet still practiced by others within the mormon church) and the purpose of the black race (Blacks were not allowed into Mormon priesthood until 1978.)?
2. Mormonism teaches an infinite regression of Gods, but an infinite regression of gods means that there is no first god by which his subjects were exalted to godhood. If there is no first God, how can there be a second and a third, and thus the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression? In regard to this, how would you interpret Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” Likewise, how would you interpret the phrase in Psalm 90:2 “from everlasting to everlasting you are God”
3. In Mormonism, the father is called Elohim and Jesus is called Jehovah. But in 1 Kings 8:60 it says that “The Lord is God.” Literally in the Hebrew it is “Jehovah is Elohim.” How do you explain this passage that says Jehovah is Elohim?
4. Joseph Smith said he saw God the father (and Jesus) in the first vision in 1820. Smith said he received the priesthood in 1829. In the Doctrine and Covenants 84:21-22 Smith said that you cannot see the face of God and live without the authority of the priesthood. How did Joseph Smith see God when he didn't have the priesthood?
5. If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God?
6. Based on your saying that all people effectively have some sort of “second chance” according to mormon teachings, where will I be when I die? Will I have a chance to recant and believe in Mormon doctrine, or will I perish for having rejected them in this life?
7. You stated that you believed that almost everyone will be in heaven and relatively few will be in Hell. While I understand how such a notion would be comforting to you, I cannot understand how your would be able to reconcile such with the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14. Do you believe this verse is in error, or that it is mistranslated? If it represents an actual word from Christ, it is in contradiction to your position, is it not?
One final thought:
Recently I spoke to two mormon missionaries and they said that they believed that we all have an eternal spirit, which preexisted our current state of being. They claim this based on Jeremiah 1 (which I disagree with in regard to their exegesis). However, here is the more pressing issue for me. If we are eternal beings, and have always existed, why then does the church teach that we are the spiritual offspring of Elohim? Were these missionaries incorrect? They were emphatic that we have “always” existed, and our current knowledge of our own pre-existent history is currently “veiled”. I am willing to concede that they may have not made themselves clear, or that I misunderstood. In either event, I would like clarification on this. (They used this as their argument for how Elohim could have been a man from another plant, but yet still be considered eternal, something I find very difficult to reconcile). Furthermore, in regard to their assertion, I find the following quote from Joseph Smith to be interesting: “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-346. Italics in original).
I hope this message finds you well. I may have more questions to follow, but these will suffice for the time being.
In Christ,
Keith |
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