Why must we be subjected to this kind of peurile statistic in society today? If they were to conduct one on how many young adults understood quantum physics, they would be rebuked for it.
But the youth must understand Scripture without genuine teaching of it.

Thus education is lacking here not the knowledge or committment of the young.

But even the church can display a vivid lack in this area.

Take for example the term "sovereignty" Many in the churches display a lack of understanding here too.
OR
Is it because proper definition of it would upset their pet doctrines on the amazing saving power of sinners?

EG.

Biblicist wrote:
Does the queen of England control and determine your every thought, motive

DJC49 wrote:
I think that BOTH camps (Reformed and Arminian) often miss the point that regeneration / faith / repentance need not be conceived as chronological steps -- many of these "stages" should be seen as distinctions WITHIN A SINGLE PROCESS and that all (in one way or another) depend upon the sovereign work of God.

JD wrote:
If you do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ you will not be saved because every verse in the scriptures on the subject says that one must believe to be saved. He that thinks God is going to believe for him is in danger of the burning.

The question is JD "Who can believe?"
You cannot overcome iniquity by human means.
You are spiritually dead until made alive by the Holy Spirit.
And JD you cannot blow down the walls of Jericho all by yourself.

1Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
// Speech by divine power. NOT human ability.
WHY???

5 That your FAITH should **NOT** stand in the wisdom of men, but in the POWER OF GOD.

//Paul continues...
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So the "natural" (unsaved) man Cannot receive - even the message without the Spirit. If he was using any human faculty, - IT would not WORK.

JD wrote:
Eddy F and Lw,
You have 12 more days left and I suggest you do a lot better.
The challenge is (It seems you have forgotten what it is) for you to find any verse in scripture saying that faith is the gift of God.
Now, that is your claim.
My goal here is to have you prove to me that the scripture nowhere says that faith is the gift of God and by so doing, repent of this "follow the leader" theology and start thinking like you have a mind of your own.

JD if you, as you keep testifying here, that you translate faith as human and not the gift of God.....

Then it's not your theology which troubles me....

It's your english comprehension.

All the verses quoted dispel the myth that faith is of human origin. And what, YOU can't read???

JD wrote:
Is that your way of saying you failed to find one verse saying faith is the gift of God? I accept it!

Gal 5:5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by [JD faculty]
Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the [JD faculty] of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by [JD faculty]
Heb 11:4 By [JD faculty] Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,
V7 By [JD faculty] Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by [JD faculty].

V29 By [JD faculty] they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

V30 By [JD faculty] the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

JD wrote:
I will give you two whole weeks to find the scriptures saying that faith is the gift of God or to apologize

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his [human faculty] is counted for righteousness
14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of [human faculty]: for whatsoever is not of [human faculty] is sin.
Gal 3:25 But after that [human faculty] is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster
Heb 11:1 Now [human faculty] is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
Acts 15:9] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by [human faculty]
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from [human faculty] to [human faculty] as it is written, The just shall live by [human faculty].
Rom 5:1] Therefore being justified by [human faculty], we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [2] By whom also we have access by [human faculty] into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
#AND
1Pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your [human faculty], even the SALVATION of your souls.

9 I pray for them: I pray NOT for the world, BUT for them which THOU HAST GIVEN me; for THEY are thine.
# Not only the Apostles did God draw to Christ. ONLY those that BELONG to God are prayed for by Christ.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
#"ALL" those who belong to God ar IN Christ from the beginning and HE will save them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,
#The Elect are *in* the world and are here differentiated from the *world*(others)
"keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
# This covers ALL the Elect kept through GOD's own name.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
# Here Christ points to a specific time "when I was with them"
HE continues to keep 13 And now come I to thee;

14 ...and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
# Again does Christ separate the Elect from the rest. Another covering statement extends beyond the Apostles.

JD wrote:
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

One should note the future tenses.

So what JD teaches, is that it was not true at the time spoken by the Holy Spirit in John.

And when is this future time?
Maybe today? Maybe tomorrow? Maybe in the next dispensationalist hypothesis? It's all rather confusing, which part of the Bible refers to the Christian and when in history?

The Bible speaks by God the Holy Spirit THEN and NOW to the true believer, by faith the gift of God.
It is very sad that some even today cannot receive the simple truth, the whole counsel of God - but try to remove it from this time frame or that, as the case may be.

1Cor 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the POWER.
20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in POWER.

The prayer of Jesus in John 17 as with all the promises of NT Scripture, can be claimed by grace/faith today as it was by faith throughout the previous 2000 years.

edifying wrote:
I will finish my points from Jn 17 but it will not help you and those like you because your mind is made up to not believe. Jn 3:19

The great thing about being a part of the Reformed Church is that we can observe the Holy Spirit at work in the 16th century Reformers writings. Today we can agree with that same stated Truth, because the Holy Spirit continues to provide that same Biblical doctrine. Truth does not change whether 2000 years ago or 400 years ago.

John 16:13 …the Spirit of TRUTH is come HE will guide you into all TRUTH….�

This promise of God is not just for once and never again.
BUT is the promise to the Church in all ages. We can therefore expect the TRUTH to remain constant in history. We can joy in the fact that it is not just with mans intellectual faculties by which we would discern the Truth, – But trust in God to provide by His Grace and Spirit.

JD wrote:
that God will save whosoever will believe in Jesus Christ whether they have been elected before the foundation of the world or not.

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

JD wrote:
Therefore he was not speaking of those he had chosen to be saved, but those he had chosen for a particular service.

The good news (not covered by dispensationaal theory) is that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are perfect; - they don't need to come up with different methods and ideas for differing stages of mans history.

The Covenant of Grace, as recorded in Scripture, is for ALL of the seed of Abraham by faith and IN Christ who is the head of the Covenant.

The theme in John 17 apply equally to the Church in all ages because God teaches there how HE thinks in terms of His Elect Church. The Elect today are no less "elect" than the Apostles were in their day. It is just that they had a different role to play in God's divine purpose and plan.
The Bible teaches us how God thinks and acts for His people in all ages.

Jesus states
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Mike wrote:
Eddy, this verse doesn't help the cause.

Mike wrote:
this verse doesn't help the cause. You cannot say that because Jesus sent up a specific prayer for the 11, and said "I pray not for the world,.." that it must mean He "rejects the rest."

I suppose it depends where you are sitting. But personally if I was sitting in the pew of the wrong church, I might see a woman - but I would not then see a pastor sent by Christ.

The Lord really meant it when HE recorded....

JD wrote:
I have an on topic question for any calvinist here, and I do not wish to be ignored.

If any verse in Scripture illustrated the singleness of purpose, in the mind of God and Christ for the Elect it is John 17:9. Here the Son of God Himself selects whom He prays for - and rejects the rest. Thus do we perceive the mind of God, in His Son.

V21 simply continues His prayer for the two significant groups in His mind and view. Thus from V20

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word=(The Church)

21 That *THEY ALL* may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that *THEY* also may be one *IN US*: = (The witness of the Church in Christ)

TO the effect...
"that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

Mike wrote:
The purpose of God according to election (Rom 9:11) is not individual election of Jacob and Esau to salvation and reprobation, but corporate election of Israel as the chosen nation of God.

18 Therefore hath he mercy ON WHOM he will have mercy, and WHOM he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O MAN, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make ONE vessel unto honour, and ANOTHER unto dishonour?

"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,a by his Word and Spirit,b out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;c enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God;d taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;e renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,f and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;g yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.h"(WCF)

a. Rom 8:30; 11:7; Eph 1:10-11. • b. 2 Cor 3:3, 6; 2 Thes 2:13-14. • c. Rom 8:2; Eph 2:1-5; 2 Tim 1:9-10. • d. Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 2:10, 12; Eph 1:17-18. • e. Ezek 36:26. • f. Deut 30:6; Ezek 11:19; 36:27; Phil 2:13. • g. John 6:44-45; Eph 1:19. • h. Psa 110:3; Song 1:4; John 6:37; Rom 6:16-18.

JD wrote:
Now for the "beginning".