MacArthur says church is 'protesting lies, deception for the sake of the truth'
Pastor John MacArthur of Californiaâ€™s Grace Community Church defended his decision to hold in-person services despite the state-mandated closure of churches, saying his congregation is â€śprotesting lies and deception for the sake of the truth.â€ť
On Tuesday, MacArthur appeared on Fox News' "Tucker Carlson Tonight" to explain why his Sun Valley, California-based church decided to reopen just two weeks after Gov. Gavin Newsom indefinitely closed churches and other businesses in more than 30 of the state's 58 counties as part of its response to the coronavirus....
Ladybug wrote: You can't seem to comprehend what was stated USâ€¦..
No the fact that God expects a response has been shown to be Biblical and your only argument against it is that you think it is Arminian. It is senseless to say God needs to open my understanding to your opinion.
Why would God demand a response if He already knows?
Ever read Genesis 3?
What part of â€śWho are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoptionâ€¦Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Rom 9:25Â Â As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.â€ť Do you not understand? The passage deals with national not personal election. Context IS important.
It would take multiple posts to show you that God lays out a command and tells the people they should obey it and also lays out consequences for not obeying it. Read your Bible, you canâ€™t miss it. (Genesis 22:18;Joshua 1:8; Luke 11:28; I John 5:2&3)
I have never based what I have posted on anotherâ€™s theological leanings, so please drop the accusation. But you are right about one thing, the discussion is nothing but a dead end and you are entitled to your opinion. Good day.
You can't seem to comprehend what was stated US... Your insistence that God 'commands a response' is Arminian, it leaves the ball in the court of the sinner, it makes the clay sovereign over the Potter. Tell me, is this a lie, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure- Isaiah 46:10 Why would God demand a response if He already knows? Then there's Romans 9, God ordains the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction- so if one of these 'vessels' hears the Gospel, does God demand a response? Your logic is based on a low view of God's sovereign will in choosing some to life, others to eternal destruction. A command does not mean there has to be a response, no more than it means every person who hears it must obey that command. May God give light....my desire NOT to respond has NOTHING to do with your worth, and everything to do with not casting pearls. Unless God gives understanding, there's no point in continuing on. The sovereignty of God is seldom grasped in Christianity, many who claim to be 'Reformed' or 'Calvinistic' in their beliefs insist Arminian gospels save, as though God must lower His standards and use accursed gospels to help save...wow....
This has been bothering me for several days so please excuse my â€śrantâ€ť.
I see this all too often. The topic that brought me into this thread was the fact that God commands, in this case to repent and believe, demand a response from the hearer. I never deviated from that in my discussion. To be honest, it is ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Actions have consequences (see Galatians 6:7&8) To say a passage that is specifically speaking about the national election of Israel (see Romans 9:4 and note the thought is continued in 9:24-30) means that God doesnâ€™t expect a response is simply bad hermeneutics.
Ladybug never could find a single word in any of my posts that showed I denied the truth of election or the necessity of the work of God in regeneration but apparently because she could not disprove my points showing that the passages clearly taught there was expected response by the hearer (Greek active voice) I somehow got off on an unnecessary â€śrabbit trailâ€ť and what false accusations did I state in any post??????
Then for her out she says, well this is my last word, you are not worth the discussion. Well thanks.
FYI wrote: Good Morning James, No, your guess is based upon what you think I am saying, that I'm not. I wasn't looking for proof texts on plagues? Holding an historacist interpretation of prophetic scripture, I was looking at the time line of history. I believe the 6th trumpet (civil judgments on usurpers) and 6th vial (judgments upon false churches) is now effecting the eastern section of the former R. Empire, places visited in Paul's missionary journey's there. But that is why you ended your sentence with a ? isn't it? On the Lord's day the topic's under my consideration began in Ezekiel 9 and Isa 6 but the application was relative to 1 Co 11:3,10 as I was trying to understand what the LORD was showing me in answer to prayer. The loss of the visible church Ephes 4:1-13 is the real judgment in the west, but that started long before the "virus". I post here because of loneliness and a want of fellowship but not unlike other matters of choice it the best of 2 evils. Evil is not a choice for a Christian. There are many precepts violated. Forgive my lack of modesty as the weaker vessel.
Good morning FYI, Thanks for the clarification and for the exchange. I encourage you to keep posting. Always good to hear a fresh voice on the forum.
Ladybug the Scriptures clearly teach God expects a response. He said He chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, He said faith comes by hearing, Read Paulâ€™s command and message in Acts 26:15-20. It is plain teaching of Scripture and the passage in Romans 9 does not negate that. No rabbit trails, no games, no false accusations just the truth of the Word of God. Thank you for your time.
James Thomas wrote: guess .. the verse that speaks of the effects your referring to and that the virus is one of those plagues?
Good Morning James,
No, your guess is based upon what you think I am saying, that I'm not. I wasn't looking for proof texts on plagues? Holding an historacist interpretation of prophetic scripture, I was looking at the time line of history. I believe the 6th trumpet (civil judgments on usurpers) and 6th vial (judgments upon false churches) is now effecting the eastern section of the former R. Empire, places visited in Paul's missionary journey's there. But that is why you ended your sentence with a ? isn't it?
On the Lord's day the topic's under my consideration began in Ezekiel 9 and Isa 6 but the application was relative to 1 Co 11:3,10 as I was trying to understand what the LORD was showing me in answer to prayer. The loss of the visible church Ephes 4:1-13 is the real judgment in the west, but that started long before the "virus".
I post here because of loneliness and a want of fellowship but not unlike other matters of choice it the best of 2 evils. Evil is not a choice for a Christian. There are many precepts violated.
Forgive my lack of modesty as the weaker vessel. I will trust the Lord for 1 Pete
US- last one to you. You are using a common tactic on this forum, rabbit trails and diversions. I addressed your error of stating the Gospel demands a response, which is what I took issue with. From your 8/7 8:55am post, "If you donâ€™t see the need for a response that is clearly taught in Scripture then maybe I am not communicating it well." My partial response-",Likewise, if you don't see the fact God already determined the elect and the reprobate, therefore He already knows the outcome-14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore âť¤ď¸Źhath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardenet1hâť¤ď¸Ź." Since you can't stay on topic, there's no point in continuing. False accusations wear thin after a while. I am done with your childish games and endless rabbit trails.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Quote anything I have posted that shows I do not acknowledge that please
Since ladybug cannot seem to find where I denied the truth of election or the necessity of the work of God in redemption in any of my posts, it is because it doesnâ€™t exist. Furthermore because she cannot show that I did not rightly divide the Word of truth by demonstrating that God does expect actions (responses) to be done by the hearers of His commands (James 1:22)and that in the Greek it is clear when it uses the Active voice that the subject is the doer of the action, I will state that by the grace of God I have given sound doctrine.
FYI wrote: I believe we are still under the effects of the sixth trumpet and vial. Who was Paul writing to? To them only?
Farmers in this valley are being pushed out.
Hi FYI, I'm sorry to hear of the trials farmers like you face. I've read that has been a tough life for some time now even before this China virus came along. I read though Rev 9 and would guess that Rev 9:20 is the verse that speaks of the effects your referring to and that the virus is one of those plagues?
Regarding Paul, He usually addressed the receiver at the beginning of his letters. The contents spoke to the events that were occurring and involving the groups mentioned at the time the letters were written and he provided citations from the OT, which spoke of these same events, as his sources. Peter did the same. In Acts 2:16 He cites the prophet Joel saying "this is that". IOW, the events that were occurring in Acts are the very same ones spoken of in Joel. Once we lock in points in time like that of Acts 2 and Joel from Scripture can we build a biblical timeline from it in chronological order to see the big picture God painted with his Word. In order to understand how Paul's letters pertains to us we must learn how they pertained to them.
James Thomas wrote: Per Ezek 37:22 those two are spoken of.....neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Sorry James, I am not disagreeing exactly only expanding upon what you are saying further down the prophetic time line. I believe we are still under the effects of the sixth trumpet and vial. That is in shorter range agreement with what you are saying. Who was Paul writing to? To them only? What I am saying includes what you are saying as well. I replied earlier but was thought a bot.
Farmers in this valley are being pushed out. My second gen dairy farming neighbor is down to 5 acres. I homestead and feel the push too but not for the same reasons. Spoke to a friend yesterday who is seeing the same, it's not in an agricultural area, rather tourist lake front property. Out of town money coming in and buying out and increasing it's value. They brought the first covid to the county.
Covetousness is idolatry. Idolatry divides nations and a nation divided against itself cannot stand.
This morning I cut open a neighbor's heirloom pepper and clearly it wasn't. Another neighbor bought seeds not heirloom and grew something all together different then the packet. Happened more then once.
Dr. Tim wrote: Amen, UPS and JUK. Hobby horses may be fun to ride, but they donâ€™t take you anywhere. The practitioners of glossalia will concentrate on one chapter of scriptureâ€”which, incidentally, they misinterpretâ€”and virtually ignore the other 1,188 chapters. Proponents of baptismal regeneration use six or eight verses to â€śproveâ€ť their case, and disregard hundreds of verses that disprove it. And the diehard Sovereign Gracer will put three ounces of Bibleâ€”and that often rewritten because the old trusty KJB refuses to play along with themâ€”on their side of the scale and turn a blind eye to the fifty pounds of Bible on the other side. Itâ€™s vital that we study the whole Bible and just let it say what it says, not what we think it says or what we wish it said.
My dear old thing, really I must protest this post.
You say that in the Bible there is the equivalent of 3oz worth of dubious proof texts for sovereign grace teaching, and 800oz worth of proof texts for what? Free will theology?
That means for every verse produced by a sovereign gracer, you have 266.66 recurring verses to prove the opposite. Nay, even an arminist would never claim such a thing. You ought be ashamed of yourself.
Dr. Tim wrote: To whom should we preach the gospel? To everyoneâ€”Mark 16:15. What will happen when we preach the gospel to everyone? Some will get savedâ€”Romans 1:16, Acts 28:24. What will happen if we preach the gospel to a lot of people? A lot of people will get savedâ€”Ecclesiastes 11:6, II Corinthians 9:6. What is the gospel? The vicarious death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christâ€”I Corinthians 15:1-4. What will happen if we donâ€™t preach the gospel, but instead sit around and argue about it? The same thing that happens Sunday after Sunday in most churches: not a blessed thingâ€”Revelation 3:1.
So true, Doc. And many churches will close down on account of it.
A vision of who Jesus is, and what he has done for lost souls, and how much he loves people, goes a long way in motivating us into taking the glorious gospel into all the world and seeing him reap the reward of his suffering and being satisfied.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 KJV (14)Â For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (15)Â And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
To whom should we preach the gospel? To everyoneâ€”Mark 16:15. What will happen when we preach the gospel to everyone? Some will get savedâ€”Romans 1:16, Acts 28:24. What will happen if we preach the gospel to a lot of people? A lot of people will get savedâ€”Ecclesiastes 11:6, II Corinthians 9:6. What is the gospel? The vicarious death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christâ€”I Corinthians 15:1-4. What will happen if we donâ€™t preach the gospel, but instead sit around and argue about it? The same thing that happens Sunday after Sunday in most churches: not a blessed thingâ€”Revelation 3:1.
Since Assyria is where they were cast off to, it is not by coincidence that in Isaiah 11, which the entire chapter context should be considered, Assyria is mentioned.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
When Israel split into two kingdoms after the reign of Solomon, Judah and Benjamin became the house of Judah (southern kingdom) and to Judah (The Jews) were given the oracles of God (Rom 3:1-2). The remaining 10 sons became the house of Israel (northern kingdom).
FYI, Thanks for the exchange of thought and respect your decision to conclude it. I will leave you with a few things to consider but before I do, I can't say I see where Paul speaks in Eph. of strangers to the commonwealth of Israel "before the split"?Â
We are, however, taught in the prophets thatÂ After the Assyrian exile of theÂ northernÂ kingdom, the house of Israel was considered "not aÂ peopleÂ ofÂ God" as they were without covenant withÂ God. Yes, They were cast off per 2 Kings 17:18\23.Â They were strangers and aliens to the covenants. Therefore, they became as Gentiles (Called Uncircumcision by the Circumcision Eph. 2:11), uncircumcised in both flesh and heart.Â
Paul identifies the Gentiles in his citing Hosea 1:9,10 in Rom. 9:26. Peter identifies the Gentiles as he cites the same prophet in 1 Peter 2:10.Â Â
2 Kings 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Only the house of Judah remained. What about the house of Israel?
2 Kings 17:23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said byÂ allÂ his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.