Elder in CoS wrote:
I'm an Elder in a kirk where our minister voted for this disgusting thing. He has brought such shame to our church and the CoS is really in serious trouble. Can all Christians pray for us that the Church be rescued from Satan and his followers?

The disruption of 1843, the Reformation of 16th century and the pharisees in Jesus time all saw moves ordained by God to reject the erroneous teachings of church and people.

As an elder you are part of the Kirk witness which is no longer a Bible believing or obeying organisation.

John UK wrote:
You don't half come out with some tripe, don't you. Whatever are you thinking of man.

Are you two related somehow...

As for "tripe" John
Here is some more of Candle Lit's Bible verses....

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, ((CL amended = read spiritual)) sold under sin.

Since the carnal flesh iaw Candle is NOT sinful then what Paul really meant to say was
Quote
""""we know that the law is spiritual but I am spiritual sold under sin"""

OR

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

CL amended version...

""""For to be spiritually minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.""""

Confusing isn't it???

John this is almost as funny as you telling us that Wesley was a Calvinist.

Candle Lit wrote:
The hand does not say, "okay, let's steal something." The legs do not say, "Let's walk into this evil place."

Candle Lit wrote:
1] Sin comes from within, and is carried out in the body.

2] It is the spirit within man that comes up with all kinds of evil.

2] When do you suggest that the "flesh" bits become affected by this spirit of sin? - At birth? 3rd grade? every tuesday?
Please Candle think this through!

How can you separate the body and soul in regard to cause and effect of sin?

Even when they become indwelt by the Spirit the mortal remains a sinner.
Where in Scripture do you find that some parts of the body are NOT under the dominion of sin?

Read Rom 6:13 to 20 and note that the statement is that the WHOLE person is affected. Righteouness makes a difference but that does not prevent us from still sinning. We are never perfect ie sinless in this life.

Candle Lit wrote:
Sin comes from within, and is carried out in the body. Skin, muscles, tendons, bones, brain matter, ears, eyes, mouth do not sin in and of themselves, separate from the spirit

"Flesh. Certain obvious meanings literal and figurative, are expressed throughout the Bible by the word "FLESH." The words se'er and basar in the OT and sarx in the NT describe the vehicle and circumstance of man's physical life in this world. Thus in Phil 1:22-24 Paul contrasts abiding "in the flesh" with departing to be "with Christ.""

"The NT view of the FLESH as the central and dynamic principle of fallen humanity."

STOICISM

As most Greeks, the Stoics believed that a human being had a soul. For the Stoics, the soul was corporeal, and was diffused throughout the body. (The individual soul was actually a part of the world-soul.) Diogenes says, "And the soul is a nature capable of perception. And they regard it as a breath of life, congenital with us; from which they infer that it is a body and secondly that it survives death" (Lives, 156). The soul is that which comes into contact with objects outside the perceiver by means of the five senses, which are called parts [or better "functions"] of the soul. The perception of an object by the soul through one of the five senses the Stoics called "presentation" (phantasia). Diogenes explains, "A presentation is an imprint on the soul; the name having been appropriately borrowed from the imprint made by the seal upon the wax" (Lives, 7.45). The soul is like a wax tablet and the object perceived is like a seal that impresses a copy of itself into the wax. (Chrysippus warns, however, that one should not think that literally an object impresses itself upon the soul"

Candle Lit wrote:
Now, would you define "flesh" for me?

FLESH
Read the BIBLE!
All I have done so far is quote relevant verses of Scripture.
Don't you believe them?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
=FLESH all that is mortal and depraved in the sinner. Hard copy as well as soft ware. NB "lust" is *IN* the flesh.

17 For the FLESH LUSTETH against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are CONTRARY the one to the other: SO THAT YOU CANNOT DO the things that ye would.
=FLESH clearly we see a powerful struggle within indicated by this verse. Do not underestimate SIN its home is the FLESH the body mind and soul of the mortal. SIN is both cause and effect IN the flesh. SIN affects ALL of the mortal.

Candle Lit wrote:
Read your own post! The "flesh," as in "earthen vessel", is NOT the problem with man! Flesh defined in Scripture is about a "heart of flesh." You sound like a STOIC. When we have the "HOLY SPIRIT" - we are new vessels. OOS

Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The vessel is full of abhorent iniquity until it dies. Death itself proves that.

NOTE THAT THIS...
17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
= CAN ONLY happen when the Spirit is indwelt.

John UK wrote:
Now as to your strange beliefs, was there not a heretical cult which propounded these views that flesh was sinful/evil and spirit was pure?

= Seems pretty clear John.

Or there is
Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

And there is
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death"

One of the gods of the hindu's is a "Molusc" - Perhaps their gong could show this?

And the muslim gong could have a practice IED strapped to it for their "peaceful" purposes.

Trinidad and Tobago is reminded that if you deny God He will deny you!

PB being PC.
However
He has just insulted Christ as the Son of God and the ONLY means of salvation.

GOD wrote....
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

Candle Lit wrote:
there is a treasure shining brightly in the vessel of clay - that of the Holy Spirit! If you fail to see that, you are missing that which should cause you to be AMAZED! Don't miss the big picture!

The presense of the Holy Spirit is what reveals and teaches me the foul, wretched and unworthy nature of the flesh, thus providing perception I would otherwise not have.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit *AGAINST* the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts"

And 1John 1:18... sin within... = yeuch! Totally Depraved!

John UK wrote:
Bro, if you check my original post, you will see that when I talk about testimony, it is testimony about the Lord Jesus, how wonderful he is, what he has done for me, how he hears prayer, washes in his blood, holds my hand, leads and guides by his Spirit, and so on.

So the faith sharing, evangel work and Bible doctrine is the wisdom of God in the power of the Holy Spirit.

ALL ALL ALL the glory to GOD alone. amen!

The clay vessel is nothing worthy of speaking about.

John UK wrote:
Yes I believe testimony is a good means of communicating, as it can't be gainsaid.

John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

Much better to give the testimony of the Lord. Hence....

2Tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

charles wrote:
God is composed of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and if God is present at Mt Sinai Then all three are. Jesus AND the HS AND the father was present.

Actually they were/are in 'harmony' - not all present otherwise Moses would have recorded it. He would not lie nor would the Lord.

You could argue that Moses "required" the Holy Spirit to receive the truth of this momentous event. But then there is; 2Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration *OF GOD,* and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

John UK wrote:
Quite correct!
Just making sure you live up to your infamous moniker, bro. Good for you.
Now here's another tester for you: why are there no carrots or turnips found in the Bible anywhere? Have they changed their names or what?

John UK wrote:
Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the DAUGHTER of ZION is left as a COTTAGE in a VINEYARD, as a LODGE in a GARDEN of CUCUMBERS, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Isaiah 1:7-9 KJV
Amazing how the remnant are found amongst the grapes and cucumbers, eh? Anyhow, this isn't getting the work done, so tarra everyone, and see ya later.

John UK wrote:
If a man does NOT RESPOND in FAITH when he hears the gospel, HE WILL NOT BE SAVED. And if a man does NOT REPENT when he hears the gospel, HE WILL NOT BE SAVED. It's that simple. Try looking at it from mans' angle once in a while, lest you become a follower of HYPERMAN!! And you wouldn't want that, surely?
And notice I didn't mention election in the above, nor the REASON why a man believes or repents. That is a separate issue.

BUT Faith is the GIFT of God wrought in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:8.

Rudi wrote:
Wherein do you think does God receive greater Glory, by giving us the faith to believe in Him (like programing a robot) or by us trusting in Him because we are blown away by His Love revealed at Calvary !
You see faith is not a work , like many would have you believe !
It is our response to God's work

That is the same old papist theory of **salvation by works**

If you DIY without divine initiation unto salvation then obviously it **DEPENDS** on you the dead sinner, the enemy of God doing something.

Which BTW does not work!!!

Exclude God if you want Rudi, but the Bible way is that GOD does the election unto salvation without sinners help.