I for one would love to see your rebuttal of GG's comments.

Sherlock,

Quillar,

That is a beautiful testement of your Faith. I wish you well in whatever Church you find happiness. I am not trying to convert you back to the Catholic Church, although I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to come back There are two things that are important to me for someone in your situation:

1) I know that the official word from the Catholic Church is that you have to be Catholic to be saved. I used to believe that but I no longer do. The reason for my change of heart is that one day I was reading my Bible - the Gospel of John to be specific - and I came across Jesus' discourse in John 9:38-40. I had read those Passages many times before but for some reason (read Holy Spirit) they really touched me and I realized that Jesus was referring to people outside what was to become the Catholic Church. If you truly believe in Jesus, you can be saved regardless of which Church you belong to.

John UK wrote:
Arminists, and all others, portray God as weak, unable to save without human co-operation.

No, John, that is not correct. God **CAN** do anything he wants including dragging blasphemers kicking and screaming into Heaven. But, He **chooses** to give us free will - He waits for *us* to make the first move towards Him. **THEN** He will bathe us with His Power and Love and guide us safely Home.

John UK wrote:
You portray God as sitting back, willing for people to repent, and crying when they refuse.

John UK wrote:
You imagine that his love is insufficient to woo his elect and win them.

John UK wrote:
Thus you minimize his love, and reckon it be naught.

WayneM wrote:
God entreats them to come to Christ, but He does not force them. God never takes delight in the fact some refuse to listen. (see Ezekiel 18:32; 2 Peter 3:9)

I was just referring to Baptism in general not infant Baptism, etc.

How can you say that Baptism is not Salvific, though? Acts 2:38 specifically says that sins are forgiven through Baptism. Mark 16:16 says to believe **AND** be Baptised. John 3:3-5 says that we must be born again of water and spirit. In Acts 9:18, after Paul is blessed, he is Baptised. Why?

I suspect that you are right but check out these passages:

Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-4, Col 2:11-12 and 1 Peter 3:21.

Sorry, but if you take a little bit of time to research what Richard Bennett is saying, you will find that if I use the only adjectives that accurately describe him, my post will rightfully be deleted.

You also misinterpreted what I said about my family. I did *not* say that *I* am going to save them. My point was that I need to make some decisions about leading them in the right direction (ie what Church we should belong to, etc) in order to ensure their Salvation.

The 4 points you made that the Catholic Church teaches in order to be saved are all incorrect. You do *not* necessarily have to be Baptized (although Mark 16:16 says you must be), Confirmed, Confess to a Priest or receive the Annointing of the Sick to be saved. They all help and in some circumstances they are required but they are not *universally* required.

Wayne,

The official definition of the sin of presumption, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church is:

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

I will assume that you are in agreement with the first kind (being able to save yourself without God’s help is a sin) so I will just address the second kind.

I wish I could agree 100% with your conclusions, but I can't. As I mentioned in my earlier reply, I am not God so I can't judge these 3 "people". You may be 100% correct, 100% wrong or somewhere in between. I can only tell you what I believe.

You pose and interesting question. Since I am not God, I cannot answer your question with any degree of certainty or authority. However, I will give you my opinion.

LL will probably not be saved. Not only did he not obey the Commandments, but, I assume, he also sinned in other ways as well. Your description isn't complete but it appears that since he felt he was free to do whatever he wanted, he felt no repentance for what he did.

Saintly may or may not be saved. I know that you are trying to depict him as someone who believes in Salvation by Works alone (which isn't what the Catholic Church teaches). But, you don't elaborate on the degree of his faith. If his faith was strong enough, yes, he would be saved. If it wasn't, then no, he wouldn't be saved.

Postrue wrote:
YEP!!
Bert is definitely commited to the Roman Catholic "salvation by works" = salvation by self - A salvation which God cannot deliver on His own, by Himself. Thus in RCC dogma terms Jesus death failed in Bert's case - *UNLESS* Bert contributes an equal 'power' to save himself???
Announcement!!
Bert is saving himself.
Pray for Bert, he needs help.

savedbygrace wrote:
Rome, of course, says this is a sin.
Read, Romans 7.

As you are undoubtedly aware, sir, one of your most famous quotes is “When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth.”. Since God is Love, it is impossible for Him to show indifference to anyone. The idea that God creates people to serve satan and to ultimately become fodder for the furnaces of hell is so unbelievable, so mind-boggling, so blasphemous that it defies reason. We are all created by God to serve Him not satan. Anyone who ends up serving satan does so of his own accord, not at God’s bidding.

What do you mean by "authentic gospel"? The Gospel I have is the same as the one you have.

I'm afraid that Richard Bennett has very little credibility in my eyes. I have listened to some of his work and they were full of inaccuracies and falsehoods.

I have no problem with or questions about the Sovereignty of the Holy Spirit.

June,

In the Lord's Prayer, the phrase "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" is a request that God's Will be done on earth not an acknowledgement that it is.

Think about it, June. If God's Will is done in our lives with or without our consent, why are there so many calls in the NT to repent and be saved? If I am predestined by God to be saved, I don't need to repent or even believe in God. OTOH, if I am predestined to be lost, no amount of repentance or belief in God can save me. So, why the calls to repentance? Why the claims like 2 Peter 3:9 that God wants *all* of us to be saved?

Note that the article you posted says "... while He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obstinacy.". How are these people obstinate? They are obstinate in that they flatly refuse to follow God's gentle calling through the Gospels for them to repent and turn to His Son. The elect are those who follow God's Will.

The quotes you give from Ephesians are referring to the fact that God created Heaven for those whom He knew would believe. It does not mean, in my opinion, that God chose some to be saved knowing that the rest would be lost. Such actions fly in the face of the claim that God is Love.

Michael,

In 2 Peter 3:9, we find "The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard "delay," but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.". Note that it says that it says *all*, not some. Further, Matt 22:14 says "Many are invited, but few are chosen.". What is the difference between those who are invited (or called) *and* chosen and those who are called and *not* chosen? I understand that we have to be born again. I am just saying that God has left the decision to accept or reject God's offer.

Xenos,

I didn't say anything about Salvation by Works (which happens to be Scriptural, BTW).

savedbygrace,

I haven't said anything about the soverignty of God.

Yes, draw can mean impelled or even enticed but it doesn't mean forced.

just a thought,