DisplacedMaritimer(Bert) wrote:
He **chooses** to give us free will - He waits for *us* to make the first move towards Him. **THEN** He will bathe us with His Power and Love and guide us safely Home.

The mortal is DEAD in sin till grace and the Holy Spirit MAKE ALIVE.

Jo 6:63 It is THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, *HE* that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL also QUICKEN your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Eph 2:1 And you hath *HE* QUICKENED, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;
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Mike wrote:
from the ATASFIRBV (Add To and Subtract From Improperly Reformulated Bible Version)

WOMI wrote:
(a) rally around "Ban Yamil!"

(b) Now, if Lurker can be a Calvinist and reject one of the most fundamental doctines of Reformed theology, then can I still be a synergist and believe that Christ saves only a predetermined few? I mean, its only fair.

(b) There have been a few people come onboard site and said they were Calvinists, but.........

As for you Yamil - we all know for definite that you are a dyed in the wool, member of the SAS.
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Mike wrote:
is there something in Scripture that says Adam's sin brought him eternal death?

OH, And why did God say....
Gen 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, AND TAKE ALSO of the TREE OF LIFE, and eat, and LIVE FOR EVER:"

Lurker wrote:
regardless of the fact that it makes a statute of the Law of Moses of no effect

-Adam created sinless.
-A free will without hinderance.
-He and Eve were THE human race albeit two.
-His decision in this state affects the entire race, his posterity.
-Thus representative before God of the race to come, in a status and position no other mortal ever stood or could ever stand.
-Consequently the entire posterity receives (a) Generation from Adam and Eve in a "Fallen nature" (b) The liability for Adam's actions.

This is not imputation?????

Dic. IMPUTE::
1. to attribute or ascribe:
2. to attribute or ascribe (something discreditable), as to a person.
3. Law. to ascribe to or charge (a person) with an act or quality because of the conduct of another over whom one has control or for whose acts or conduct one is responsible.
4. Theology. to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.
5. Obsolete. to charge (a person) with fault.

OK Lurker
As John has indicated You have not posted your hypothesis. Edify us!! Including why Deuter 24:16 proves us all wrong.

Lurker wrote:
Arylss couldn't give a straight answer to the question and neither have you

Obviously the Reformed position of Covenant of Works and Federal headship is in complete compliance with our reading of all Scripture.

Lurker wrote:
(1) I can't believe I need to defend God , who can't lie (Heb 6:18) saying: "the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" against Satan who was a liar from the beginning (John 8:44) saying: "Ye shall not surely die". They died

(2) read 2 Cor 3:6-9

(2) 2Cor 3:6-9 Has no apparent direct connection to the Covenant of Works and original sin and its transmission to mankind. Paul here, is merely comparing the ministry of the gospel(Spirit) with the ministry of the law(letter).

You posted earlier that you were quote "generally reformed" u/q. I'm afraid on this point I do not recognise your theology from a reformed perspective. Sorry!

Lurker wrote:
I suspect this is why Arlyss is having a difficult time understanding me.

Lurker wrote:
1. (a) Did you compose this?

(b) Hence, all were still "in Adam" and according to you; guilty of his sin. So why were not all put to death?

2. It's not difficult to believe that the progeny of Adam inherited his nature while rejecting the premise that they inherited his sin.

3. Better read my post again, Arlyss. I said nothing about "IMPUTED to progeny"

4. No. Adam and Eve were under the law of faith;

2. Is it not specifically the "Fallen nature" which is inherited? Thus NOT the nature originally made by God. Was the flesh of Adam sinless before his sin?

Lurker wrote:
1. To ignore these verses and quote other verses which seem to agree with your view

2. a statute of Moses

3. Agreed. I have no qualm with Adam's fallen nature being innate to all his progeny.

3. (Before #2) You agree??? Then what are you actually debating here?

2. Deu 24:16. (Instructions to Magistrates) Establishes that each is responsible for his own sin. A just God would have it no other way. God will save the elect and the rest are guilty as charged. Remnant Reconciled, by God, only IN Christ even though ALL are guilty.

Lurker wrote:
"The guilt of that sin is imputed to all his descendants, and the penalty executed upon them at their birth." is in gross error

Am I missing something in between?

Lurker wrote:
Thank you kindly, Arlyss, but this statement refuses reconciliation with...
Rom 3:19
Rom 5:13
Jhn 1:17
Deu 24:16

If Adam's sin is the innate sin of all mankind what purpose did this statute serve? All should have been put to death. This doctrine creates far too much tension in scripture especially pertaining to precious children.

So are you doubting the connection with Adam, as opposed to the liability of the posterity?

Lurker wrote:
would someone who believes Adam's original sin is imputed to all mankind in the womb from Moses forward

WCF ch 6 sec 3...
"2. The guilt of that sin is imputed to all his descendants, and the penalty executed upon them at their birth.

By the word "guilt" is meant, not the personal disposition which prompted the act, nor the personal moral pollution which resulted from it, but simply the just liability to the punishment which that sin deserved.

By the term "impute" is meant to lay to the charge or credit of any one as a ground of judicial punishment or justification. This is the sense in which the phrase "to impute sin" or "righteousness" is used in the Bible. "David describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, . . . to whom the Lord will not impute sin. . . . Faith was imputed to Abraham for righteousness." (Rom. 4:3-9.) "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." (2 Cor. 5:19.)"

Jim Lincoln wrote:
Scofield [1917 Notes] wrote:
Romans 11:1:
cast
That Israel has not been forever set aside is the theme of this chapter.
(1) The salvation of Paul proves that there is still a remnant (ro 11:1)
(2) The doctrine of the remnant proves it (ro 11:2-6).
(3) The present national unbelief was foreseen (ro 11:7-10).
(4) Israel's unbelief is the Gentile opportunity (ro 11:11-25).
(5) Israel is judicially broken off from the good olive tree, Christ (ro 11:17-22).
(6) They are to be grafted in again (ro 11:23,24).

Jim Lincoln wrote:
the Church started at Acts 2:4, or the very latest by Acts 10:44. Ekklesia never means Church until Acts 2.

The 200 hundred year old building in the centre of town with a spire, is a modern ideology - NOT from Scripture.

The god of mammon cannot 'afford' too many babies in todays family!!

After all that would require the female to stay at home and loose career time.

But the fruit of the womb is a 'reward' of God, so perhaps He has reduced the reward because western man has reduced church authority and Holy Law.

Psalm 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Jim Lincoln wrote:
#1. House churches are just for beginning Christian groups or in lands where Christians are persecuted as in Islamic and Communist countries.

#2. None of the seven churches mentioned in the book of Revelation, or in Paul's letters appear to be house churches.