I don't think it is self-absorbing to want go out of this world in violent spiritual struggle with the unseen forces of darkness and to have "conquered him [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives EVEN UNTO DEATH." Rev. 12:11

Indeed for me, "to live is Christ, and to die is gain." As long as I live on this God-forsaken earth I work night and day to bring deliverence to Satan's captives, with no hope of transforming the kingdoms of this world, but rather calling men and women out "from the domain of darkness and transfering them into the kingdom of his beloved Son" (Col 1:13)

The first two centuries of the church passed under the rule of one of the most oppressive empires ever known to man. With men like Nero on the throne, anything like even a conception of liberty would have been laughable. And yet, for all that, Christianity thrived as it has never done since in all of these intervening centuries, with powerful supernatural demonstrations of Holy Ghost DUNAMIS power and immaculate, otherworldly lives lived in absolute holiness.

Pressure is far more conducive to the formation of Christ in the hearts of individuals as demonstrated even today in the underground Chinese Church [with all the attendant signs and wonders], these indeed are the "travails of the birthing of Christ." Your optimistic, Lockean philosophy of freedom is but worthless human dung and I shall not be taken "captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to HUMAN TRADITION, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." (Col 2:8)

In point of fact, I did not at all describe any of the perverted acts that take place in the pigsties of America, but merely named a few of them! Your offense betrays your moral culpability for "this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their DEEDS WERE EVIL. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his DEEDS SHOULD BE EXPOSED." (John 3:19-20)

Those of us not under the miserable bondage of a guilty conscience "take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead EXPOSE them." (Eph. 5:11) This Gospel is not for the weak-kneed, easily offended, polite, soft-spoken, limp wristed sissified sinners but MEN of spiritual authority and moral sobriety who are prepared to proclaim the truth of God's Word, without emotion and without fear of men. The effeminate dandies will not inherit the kingdom of God! (1 Cor 6:9)

The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God and therefore DO NOT gratify the desires of the flesh. They have indeed CRUCIFIED (eradicated) the flesh (carnal nature) with all of its passions when they were baptized into His death. "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin....So you also must consider yourselves DEAD TO SIN and alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Rom 6:6-11)

Paul, who lived a blameless life in Christ, who commended himself in every way for his "great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger; by PURITY, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love; by truthful speech, and the POWER OF GOD; with the WEAPONS of RIGHTEOUSNESS for the right hand and for the left" (2 Cor 6:4-7) had long ago been crucified to the world and its lusts for "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." (Gal 2:20)

Herein lies the fundamental difference between you and me. My greatest desire is to die a martyr and "drink the cup that He had to drink, and be baptized with the baptism with which He was baptized," (Mark 10:38-39)

The baptism of water and the baptism of fire were both life transforming experiences for me "but there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood." (1 John 5:8) Yea, I seek with all my heart to complete my earthly sojourn with the baptism of blood.

"I guess your answer would be that a sold out Christian will be walking in the power of God, as Jesus was?"

I'm sure you were aware that I would bring this very hard teaching of Christ that is: "I say to you, do NOT resist the one who is evil." (Matt. 5:39) If, in carrying out the selfless work of Christ we have run-ins with the law, we are not to resist but rather ignore the law and the State and whatever consequences follow we are compelled to humbly accept as the providence of God.

I believe to instate a worthy statesman like Ron Paul into the executive office would be a much better thing for this country than to replace Bush with another scandalous plutocrat. Being opposed to all bloodshed, his foreign policy alone would prevent much greater evil than what is even now being commited with impunity under the pretence of "national security."

You're right, there would be no such thing as Christianity as we know it today. The Christianity of the martyrs and confessors who humbly submitted to imperial injustice, who raised not even a fist in their defence, following the excellent examples of Christ and His Apostles. The revolution they fought was a revolution of the heart, empowered by the weapons of faith, hope, and love. They knew nothing of Jefferson, nor Locke, nor Paine, nor Calvin, nor Luther, nor "natural God-given" rights, nor violent self-centered, self-promoting rebellions, but they knew "Christ and Christ crucified," and with much joy did they suffer all manner of injustices and indemnities.

No one can be saved(delivered) from a carnal nature, a corrupt heart, nor the "the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience" except by the divine power of God, that is, by grace. Those of us who have indeed been "redeemed[saved] from all lawlessness and purified as a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works" (Titus 2:14) will recieve a glorious inheritance [eternal life] based on our obedience to His teaching.

Anonymous, need I familiarize you with Ancient Athens? Nowhere in history was a philosophy of freedom promoted more vehemently . I see nothing in the law of Christ concerning liberty from anything but sin and the power of the evil one. You should also read the Tao de Ching. Very libetarian indeed. Let alone the inherent libetarian ideals of the animal spirit worshiping Native Americans.

Man's revolutions are of nothing worth from the vantage point of eternity. Rather than humbly submitting to their mother country's demands, they chose to engage in a violent uprising with the atheist Thomas Paine leading the way in the realm of ideas. Where in the apostolic tradition, where in the express commands of Christ, where in the Sermon on the Mount do you find any justification for a blood-soaked rebellion against established authority [Whatever you may argue, Great Britian never once formally relinquished their authority over their colonies]?

Peter, chief among the Apostles retorts: "And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's DEEDS, CONDUCT yourselves with fear " (I Peter 1:17)

Paul assenting declares: "let us cleanse ourselves from EVERY DEFILEMENT of body and spirit, bringing HOLINESS to completion in the fear of God...For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but KEEPING the COMMANDMENTS of God." (1 Cor 7:18-20, 2 Cor 7:1)

Paul seemed to think that the dead works of external rule-keeping counted for nothing in God's economy, but the obedience to the commandments of Christ counted for EVERYTHING. I guess this is why the Hebrew author exhorts those of us who are pure, to "Strive for that holiness, without which noone will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14)

This is absolute hogwash and your conversation is degenerating into irreverent babbling. I will soon cease this discussion with you as I uphold the entirety of Gospel law and shall not fail at any point.

The old man and the new man by definition cannot be one and the same man. This is a visible contradiction. Heed the words of the Apostle's inspired proclamation: "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you WHO WERE ONCE SLAVES of sin have become OBEDIENT from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been SET FREE FROM SIN, have become slaves of righteousness." (Rom 6:16-20)

When the "the Son of Man comes with his angels in the glory of his Father, he will repay each person according to what he has done." I will not be rewarded or punished on the basis of how the Son of Man lived 2,000 years ago, nor on the basis of belief, but solely according to MY OWN deeds. That is, MY OWN conformity to the commandments of Christ. This is why I must not recieve the "grace of God in vain," (2 Cor 2:6:1) and make full use of it in order to "work out MY OWN salvation with fear and trembling" and consecrate my "body as a living sacrifice" so that he may "work in ME and through ME, both to will and work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12-13).

This of course is patently false. Being a student of American civilization I am well aware of the ideological origins of the Founding Fathers and I can assure you they had nothing to do with the law of Christ. John Locke, freemasonry, the pagan Roman Republic, classical literature, and deism perhaps, but certainly not the Gospel. In fact the rebellion against the lawful authority (over "taxation without representation") was itself directly contrary to the apostolic teaching laid out in Romans 13 as well the express commands of Christ to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Hmm...your powers of observation appear rather weak. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the demand for drugs have skyrocketed since the declaration of the "War on Drugs," as well for that matter, has the supply.

Housewives could get opiates cheaply from the drugstores in the 20s and 30s. Demand was consistent but poor. Drug laws have increased costs a hundredfold while demand and supply have rocketed sky-high. Sorry, your theoretical musings do not correlate with the facts of tried and true EXPERIENCE.

Why you think yourself qualified to tell the holy and unspotted what qualifies as "true judgement," is beyond me. Let us remember that only the spiritual man "judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one." 1 Cor 2:14-16

I have little concern for your quibbling about "correct interpretation" for only the morally spotless and spirtually pure have any right understanding of the things of God, for they are "spiritually discerned." Ah, but "we have the mind of Christ!"

Having incontrovertibly demonstrated that the actual underlying Greek is "historical present (a technical term you would do well to look up)" let me not belabor the point on matters of language since we are not equals in respect to the the ancient tongues..of that I can assure you. Here I will focus on logic. Consider the following:

(1) a. Paul recalls that "we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin." (Rom 7:14)

b. Paul warns "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God."

(2) a. Paul recollects: "Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."

b. Paul declares: "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God DWELLS IN YOU."

Of course, this is just plain wrong. I am unfamiliar with any saint who had been delivered from the bondage of sin (He cam to set the captives free, no?) describing their liberty in Christ thus. Naturally being unfamiliar with Greek Thurant, you did not realize that the tense is what we who know something about such matters call the "historical present." It was a widespread literary technique in the Hellenistic world, used to give a particular vividness to a scene. Anyone acquainted with American movies will be familiar with what we call "flashback."

And so the underlying Greek text ends the flashback (to his days as an unregenerate but knowledgable Phairisee) at "Who shall deliver me from this body of death...." Fast-forward to the present and you will see Rom. 8 contracdicts almost on a point-by-point basis life in Christ as contrasted with life as a carnal Phairsee.