Larger Catechism;
Q72: What is justifying faith?

A72: Justifying faith is a saving grace,[1] wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit [2] and word of God,[3] whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition,[4] not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel,[5] but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin,[6] and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.[7]

John UK wrote:
1) In Acts 2:38, when Peter was preaching, God was enlightening, bringing to spiritual life
......
2) ye shall receive the Holy Ghost [to indwell you

1) Here you are trying again to establish God working independantly of the Holy Spirit. Tell me why do you think that God sent His Spirit down amongst us in the first place whether OT or NT times?
It appears to be your neo-religious theory that God goes in first then sends the Spirit in later!!

Lurker on the other hand seems to be trying to prove that the "Word" is a power on its own WITHOUT the Holy Spirit!

2) Again you have turned back to REWARD BASED redemption. Viz: "If you do this - God will save you"

Exclusion of the Holy Spirit appears to be your whole intention! WHY?

Indwelling is not a response by God to man's "good" works. Thats you flogging hyperWesleyan theory again. God owes the sinner nothing! From the outset God's entire salvation is unmerited - not deserved in any way by man.

Christ crucified is the ONLY Redeemer God accepts.

John UK wrote:
1) But the INDWELLING of the corporate body by the Spirit presupposes the resurrection.

2) The Spirit helps us to obey Jesus commandments (vs. 15) where the righteous demands of the law are met for those who walk according to the Spirit

2) The indwelling Spirit helps us to obey, - Exactly what the WCF is teaching - therefore this proves what I have been saying all along, that the Holy Spirit indwells at calling/regeneration to work faith and repentance in an otherwise dead sinner.

Born again = synonymous with = regeneration = synonymous with = indwelling.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but IN THE SPIRIT, if so be that the Spirit of God DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is NONE OF HIS.

John UK wrote:
1) the saints of the OT enjoyed regeneration but may not have enjoyed indwelling to the extent that we do.

2) Regeneration and indwelling are not exactly the same

2) Jn 7.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was NOT YET GIVEN; because that Jesus was NOT YET GLORIFIED)

John UK wrote:
Review your thinking, please.

Clearly Jesus Himself separates the dwelling with - and the indwelling, just as Scripture does. The dividing point between them is the glorification of Christ.

Acts 2 Pentecost is where God began the indwelling of the Church, the whole Church of God. From that time on the Church was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which means that from effectual calling the Holy Spirit enabled the elect to receive the calling of the Word, regenerated them and worked faith and repentance in their hearts, permanently remaining in the elect as Rom 8:9 teaches.

John UK wrote:
1) If, as you say, the very first people to be born again (incorrect, btw)...

2) if they were to repent and be baptised in Jesus name

for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you.
for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you.
for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you.
for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you.
for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you.

Notice the two ways John
#1 WITH YOU
#2 IN YOU

#1 old way before Acts 2 Pentecost.
#2 Future way after Pentecost.

2) Oh dear John - You and your old Arminian convictions? When will you realise that GOD does not REWARD the sinner!!

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF SO BE THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS.

Two points;
1. Ye are NOT in the flesh.
2. *IF* the Spirit DWELLS, DWELLS, DWELLS *IN* you.

Two points;
1. If you have NOT the Spirit
2. YOU ARE *NOT* A CHRISTIAN.

Lurker wrote:
1. the HS indwelling unbelievers to make them willing and able to believe is roadkill

2. the HS indwelling children

2. Age has nothing to do with indwelling - God is still in charge. All indwelling begins at - !! - I was going to say regeneration; BUT it really begins before that even - in Effectual Calling.

WCF 10/1 "All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God;...."

Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin"

Notice Paul thanks God for this work - not the (Arminian) sinner for his human effort.

So indwelling begins at Effectual Calling.

Mike wrote:
1. It isn't my definition. What do you find wrong with it?
2. We're well behind in snowfall this year. In my immediate area, we've had but one fall of 3 inches, and December has seen few daytime temps below freezing. Which is ok by me. How about north of Vallum Aelium?

John UK wrote:
I guess Presby knows the game is up, so he has begun to agree with us

Oh John what a sense of humour you have.

As you know John I cannot agree with you and Lurker, because I stick to the Bible version of events.
___________

Lurker wrote:
are granted to...., BELIEVERS (Hodge), THOSE THAT ARE JUSTIFIED (WCF 12). Unbelievers have no right to these privileges

Whats the "are granted to" - Implying that God must reward sinners for works done???
You're getting as bad as hyperWesleyan John for redefining the way which God works.

LETS LOOK AGAIN AT WHAT Hodge says - this time leaving the english as it stands....

Quote;;
"This divine sonship, into which the believer is introduced by adoption, INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING PRINCIPAL ELEMENTS and advantages-

#5 The indwelling of the Spirit of his Son (Gal. 4:6), who forms in us a filial spirit, or a spirit becoming the children of God-" (A.A.Hodge)

Now lets NOT CHANGE THE ENGLISH here ;-
And note that Hodge demonstrates the Biblical facts which show that Divine Sonship/Adoption "INCLUDE" the "INDWELLING" of the Spirit.

Mike wrote:
REGENERATE \Re*gen"er*ate\ (-?t), a. [L. regeneratus, p. p. of regenerare to regenerate; pref. re- re- + generare to beget
1. To generate or produce anew; to reproduce; to give new life, strength, or vigor to.
2. (Theol.) Born anew; become Christian; renovated in heart; changed from a natural to a spiritual state.
3. To cause to be spiritually born anew; to cause to become a Christian; to convert from sin to holiness; to implant holy affections in the heart of.

Lurker wrote:
1) Doublespeak.
2) Your spin of WCF 7/3c....
3) the HS must enter upon unbelievers "to make them willing, and able to believe".
4) It doesn't say that. Grammatically, it says exactly what I reduced it to

2) No spin. The WCF is correctly written as per Biblical Reformed Presbyterian exposition.

3) Right on Bro! That is Biblically correct.

4) It does. But don't forget the WCF is Reformed Theology - Thats different to Lurkerology. [URL=http://www.mbrem123.com/creeds/wcf_12.php]]]A WCF Commentary by A.A.Hodge[/URL] - NB especially his footnote #5.

Quote;
"This divine sonship, into which the believer is introduced by adoption, includes the following principal elements and advantages-

bornfromabove wrote:
1. Can he be regenerated without being indwelt

Eph 1:13 According to this verse it was after they believed they were sealed with the Holy Spirit

2. 'Sealed' as a term relates to the old way of sealing a letter with wax and ring. It is the sign of the sender, a confirmation of whom and a removal of doubt as to who He is.
What is being sealed? - Answer "Faith"
NB "after that ye believed" - The Holy Spirit works faith in the heart of the believer. God the Holy Spirit is the only one who can apply the seal of faith in the sinner. See also 2Cor 1:22.
Again as I have said to others, the Holy Spirit or the works of grace He performs are not earned by the sinner, and are not rewards to unrighteous sinners. There are two operations of the Spirit here (1) Faith. (2) Sealing.

Lurker wrote:
1. final authority.

2. Either the HS indwells believers or He indwells unbelievers

1. The absolute authority for Biblical Calvinist Presbyterians like myself is and always was (including the 16th/17th century) The Word of God.
Thats one of the reasons I can see that the WCF is totally Biblical in all its statements.
I see that below you are rewriting the WCF - Now that you've done rewriting the Bible.

2. Lurker here is how it all works. - "The UNbeliever when indwelt by the Holy Spirit *IS* a believer" No longer an unbeliever. Not until then can the sinner use faith and repent. That is 'born of the Spirit'.

The "middle way" I am referring to is where you, John and bfa, have decided there is a 'middle birth period' between born of the flesh and born of the Spirit, in contradiction to Jn 3:6.

John UK wrote:
1. I am very concerned about your irreverence when speaking about the Holy Ghost - "pops in for coffee"????!!!!

2. it is a simple fact that many OT saints were occasionally "filled with the Spirit"

3. Do you still believe that the OT saints were believers yet were never indwelt nor regenerated?

2. AAAaaarrghhh!!! Not again?
POST GLORIFICATION - POST GLORIFICATION - POST PENTECOST - POST PENTECOST
John these are different from the Old Testament.
John these are different from the Old Testament.

3. POST GLORIFICATION - POST GLORIFICATION - POST PENTECOST POST PENTECOST.
Quoting Jesus for the ten millionth time = "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Old way = DWELLETH *WITH* *WITH* *WITH*

Future way = SHALL BE *IN* *IN* *IN*

John. This guy Jesus was the Son of God, so you can trust in what He wrote and said.

bornfromabove wrote:
1. When we are regenerated the scripture seems to be silent as to whether the Spirit indwells at this point or not.
2. Did I suggest that in Acts 2 this was a temporary event?
3. Re: the verses you posted. Wasn’t Paul writing to believers

2. I didn't say you did - what I put forward is a proposal WHICH I ANSWERED. Hows your english? Like Johns?

3. Paul describes the status of the elect POST GLORIFICATION - POST PENTECOST.

Attention folks = THERE IS NO MIDDLE WAY!!!

Romans 8:9 makes a specific point whether to a believer or to a giraffe!!!

Regeneration is the commencement of indwelling.

Your (John/Lurker) version....
Regeneration - Spirit pops in for coffee AND LEAVES? and does not become a permanent resident until later??? WHY? WHY? WHY?
Perhaps He doesn't like the wallpaper?

bornfromabove wrote:
Where does it say in Scripture that we are indwelt of the Holy Spirit at the point of regeneration (born again)?

Jesus teaches only two "born" ways of existence.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Flesh is clearly dead in sin.
Born of the Spirit is Jesus new way of promise at this stage in His teaching.

Pentecost Acts 2 refers to the Spirit coming down and filling them. Surely this is not supposed to be a temporary event. Scripture goes on to state otherwise.

2Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

God the Father and God the Son live (indwell) in the elect by their Holy Spirit.

bornfromabove wrote:
I think he is saying that the old testament saints were not indwelt of the Holy Spirit but that he dwelled with them

Note the TWO methods...
1) "He dwelleth with you"
2) "and shall be in you"

This is part of the Promise of Christ and Scripture.

1) "dwelleth with" is Pre-Glorification = BUT obviously in the power of God not any less than Post-Glorification days.

2) "shall be in you" is a promise of future operation of the Spirit, hence Post glorification and post Pentecost.
"Indwelling" happened after this but we are saved NO LESS than the OT saints were.

"Born again" or Born of the Spirit clearly indicates the "indwelling" since the Spirit becomes the Spirit of the elect.
As Paul describes in Rom 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Clearly Paul here provides this description/operation after Pentecost.

John UK wrote:
I ask again, for the umpteenth time. If regeneration, new birth, indwelling of the Spirit, is crucial to bring the elect to salvation, then HOW were the OT saints brought to salvation?

As posted before thousands of times....

3) Simeon, OT Saints et al - Before Christ's glorification DWELLING **WITH** was the work of the Holy Spirit. THIS does not diminish the power of God.

3) Simeon, OT Saints et al - Before Christ's glorification DWELLING **WITH** was the work of the Holy Spirit. THIS does not diminish the power of God.

3) Simeon, OT Saints et al - Before Christ's glorification DWELLING **WITH** was the work of the Holy Spirit. THIS does not diminish the power of God.

3) Simeon, OT Saints et al - Before Christ's glorification DWELLING **WITH** was the work of the Holy Spirit. THIS does not diminish the power of God.

3) Simeon, OT Saints et al - Before Christ's glorification DWELLING **WITH** was the work of the Holy Spirit. THIS does not diminish the power of God.

John UK wrote:
1) You're now saying that a man can be spiritually enlightened without the new birth, when considering that you equated the new birth with indwelling.
2) So theoretically, you can see my point that a man can be brought to repentance and faith without being born again.
3) But if you disagree with that, then will you answer my question as to how Simeon was spiritually enlightened without being born again. Or Abraham, or any of the OT saints?

2) Thats baloney John.

3) Simeon, OT Saints et al - Before Christ's glorification DWELLING **WITH** was the work of the Holy Spirit. THIS does not diminish the power of God.

"Born Again" "Regeneration" "Born of the Spirit" "indwelling" is POST GLORIFICATION and POST PENTECOST.

John UK wrote:
because I am a biblical man, unlike you who deliberately goes against scripture to toe the party line

You are the only guy who can read the Bible.

And

The entire Reformed Church has never been able to read it.

Keep on flogging the works based religion John.