Unprofitable Servant wrote:
You stop short
He did not say about His body, which will be broken or will be given , He said which is broken or is given. He did not say My blood which will be shed, but My blood which is shed .

John 17:4 KJV
(4)  I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The work which God gave Jesus to do was not finished until Jesus cried out on the cross, "Finished!"

Similarly, even Paul the apostle claimed his work was finished before time.

2 Timothy 4:7 KJV
(7)  I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Recommended reading: the following verse in context:

Mike wrote:
1. My bad, John. Didnt realize the requirement of never pointing out a truth unless all my own theological ducks are lined up perfectly. I'm afraid I might have to continue, though, until everyone else restrains for the same reason as well. But then I think it would be get real quiet around here.

2. Indeed the whole man was bought and paid for on the cross. And because of the resurrection, we have life. And surely when we 'do this in remembrance of me' we should do it with the discernment that comes from humility and gratitude. Else we might expect a discipline we don't want.

1. What you were saying about Martin Luther was, "Oh, he was wrong on purgatory, therefore I won't listen to what he has to say about the communion."

If I took that to its conclusion, I would not listen to another Christian, ever. For who has his doctrines perfect? No-one, except the self-deceived.

Mike wrote:
Martin Luther also believed in Purgatory.
John, believers are made to partake of his body and blood by faith in that which is called salvation. His indwelt spirit. No further partaking of that which is already had can be wrought by the Lord's Supper, which is a remembrance. How can more Jesus be gained by it? "with all his benefits."? Communion is to bring to mind gratitude for what he has already done, not to bring us more benefits, as reward If we be properly worthy.

Christians of today are so shallow in their thinking, and that includes me. But I am not staying in that rut but going on for higher and deeper.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 KJV
(29)  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
(30)  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

When was the last time you heard a sermon entitled: "Sicknesses and Deaths through Not Discerning the Lord's Body"?

"Q. What is the Lord's supper? A. The Lord's supper is a sacrament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to Christ's appointment, his death is showed forth; and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporal and carnal manner, but by faith, made partakers of his body and blood, with all his benefits, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace."

If folks don't know what "not after a corporal and carnal manner" means, you've only got to ask.

1689 Baptist Confession - Lord's Supper

Paragraph 7. "Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses."

Frank wrote:
Brother John!
I got the below from the internet:
"Presbyterians believe that the presence of Jesus Christ is very real in Holy Communion, but that the bread and wine are just symbols of the spiritual ideas that communion represents."
Although I have never identified myself with Presbyterians, I simply believe the above. I do not eat the literal body of Christ and I do not drink the literal blood of Christ.

Queen Elizabeth I of England rejected the transubstantiation of the RCC, but retained the real presence of Jesus Christ in bread and wine, calling it a mystery. Martin Luther was of similar ilk previously.

Please read again the Presbies own take, noting the need for faith to benefit from the communion supper.

Frank wrote:
Cut and paste!
Jesus must have been speaking metaphorically when He referred to the “bread” literally being His body and the “wine” literally being His blood. When Jesus said “this is My body”, He was still with them in the flesh; therefore it could not have been His literal body. He could have said that after He was resurrected it would become His body, but He didn’t.

The passover Jesus was celebrating with his disciples occurred a long time ago. They were remembering the great victory wrought by God when he set his people free from slavery in Egypt.

When I was a young Christian, I learned that there were two basic positions: transubstantiation (which was a Roman Catholic doctrine, the term first being used around the 11th century), and purely symbolic (which was held by all Christians).

This simplistic approach is just not good enough, as research will show. For example, let us take the Presbies approach:

The Westminster Shorter Catechism:

Q. What is the Lord's supper? A. The Lord's supper is a sacrament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to Christ's appointment, his death is showed forth; and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporal and carnal manner, but by faith, made partakers of his body and blood, with all his benefits, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace.

Note, "made partakers of his body and blood".

Now the greek word koinonia means fellowship, or communion, as in:

1 Corinthians 10:16 KJV
(16)  The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Mike wrote:
True, we are indeed becoming more like civilized bleeding Europe as time goes on, John. Too many here pushing in that direction. One world views and all that. The results show.

Frank wrote:
Yes brother, it is hard for me to imagine a world like this, but it will happen.
Mark 13:12 “Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.”
Luke 21:11 - And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Matthew Chapter 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Come quickly Lord Jesus, come quickly.

Sure, I know all about it. You've got Black Lives Matter and 'you've' got American Pride.

James Thomas wrote:
...
Concerning Psalm 2...

Mike wrote:
I wonder of what need this is, as the grocery is open and the shelves are nearly full. The guv is sending printing press money, and there is no excuse for not building up the larder, a bit at a time, and that without the hoarding we have seen. There is something about going to the ant, and not being a sluggard. Ordinary common sense as was done throughout history, to harvest in season so as to provide out of season. Christians in particular have no excuse, and should be in consideration of their neighbors, who may have need in hard times.

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
If the scenario you painted was in any way accurate it would have happened long ago and been common throughout our history.

B. McCausland wrote:
Brother, never lose sight that the full stops come set by the hand above, though the common folk might have to go through seasons as being "sheep unto the slaughter"
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
Let the Lord be our strength

B. McCausland wrote:
Many a time in history authentic believers pondered in the same lines you write here, yet let's remember that evil and jugdements often come in 'tides' or waves that come and go.

With stockpiling of weaponry and ammunition in America, and with the economy and jobs severely affected by lockdown procedures, with this leading to near starvation for some families, and supposing the pandemic cannot be controlled any other way, and the guv not willing to let it run and do its worst, thusly the austerity continues until some folks just cannot cope any more, and they see stealing food as the only way of survival, at gunpoint of course, maybe stealing money, cars etc., maybe forming into groups or gangs, living in forests like Robin Hood, robbing the rich so that their families can eat, and so on and so forth.

I also see that some countries exited lockdown too early and now they are suffering the consequences of a second wave of cases.

I also see that this pandemic is not normal, and could go on for years. We may never get back to what we call normal, which makes me wonder if it is all part of the preparation for the second coming of Jesus Christ and the end of the world.

danfromtenn wrote:
The following is a good example of using the kind of symbolic language I have in mind:
2 Samuel 23:16-17 KJV
And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the LORD. [17] And he said, Be it far from me, O LORD, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it.
You are supposed to know it's symbolic!

Are you sure that David uses symbolic language to describe the water that the three men brought from Bethlehem as the blood which was still running quite freely through the veins of the three men? What is he saying? And how does that compare to the blood of Jesus Christ, which he says we have to drink (either literally or spiritually) in order to abide in him and he in us?

Frank wrote:
Thanks for the info! Yes brother the decline is permanent. Once Pandora's Box has been opened only the return of our Lord and Savior can close it.
Have a blessed evening!

You've many times mentioned Pandora's Box, and I understand now why, after all this time. You know I ponder things for a very long time.

Frank wrote:
Brother John! I don’t know which woman you are referring to but your conclusion is right on. John Knox is quoted as saying the below:
“To promote a woman to bear rule, superiority, dominion, or empire above any realm, nation, or city, is repugnant to nature; contumely to God, a thing most contrary to his revealed will and approved ordinance; and finally, it is the subversion of good order, of all equity and justice.”
Christians often criticize those who make God’s word progressive, but then many of us do exactly that when it comes to issues like this.
Even saying what women's roles are in this life is labeled hate speech by many.

Yes, the lady in question whom I was referring to, is the Scottish equivalent of a prime minister, being a devolved parliament, the same as it is here in Wales. Of her, wiki says...

'Nicola Ferguson Sturgeon is a Scottish politician serving as the fifth First Minister of Scotland and the Leader of the Scottish National Party since November 2014. She is the first woman to hold either position.'

Mike wrote:
A needful question, if you don't mind, John. The church is the body of Christ. He is the head of the church, we are the body, the church. How then the bread become for us what we already are?

If you don't mind, I would like to answer with scripture:

1 Corinthians 11:24 KJV
(24)  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:29 KJV
(29)  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Key words here: "not discerning the Lord's body".