“ Abraham is as described ” Abraham is indeed the father of many nations, naturally and spiritually. God given faith in our Savior's work on the cross is the only means of salvation for Jew and Gentile. But Israel and the Church play different roles in this world. And you can't slant Hermeneutics. All that means is do you take things at face value or not. Romans 11 was clearly speaking about Israel when in verse 28 he states, "... they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sake." He also says in Romans 11 that God is not through with them and their blindness is in part til the fullness of the gentiles be come when he will turn ungodliness from them. And in verse 29 Paul states that God does not change His mind. Believe what you must. But it is best to believe what is.
“ Greetings, Alvin ” This is an issue of biblical perspective instead of a shackled hermeneutical slant. Abraham was to be the father of many nations (peoples) not of the Jews exclusively, "... behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations" Gen.17 which comes quoted and intrerpreted in Rom. 4. It is worth noticing how the NT interprets what it appears to be 'literal' promises and follow the same slant. Evidence has been presented it is your choice. Regards
“ If you say so. ” The 2 words, Israel and Church are both nouns describing a specific group of people, whether they be technically described as proper or generic or not. The Bible is a Him book, as Henry Mahan would say. It is all about He who is the Alpha and Omega. He always has been and always will be the only way of salvation. In the New Jerusalem all who are there are there by His blood whether they be Jew or Gentile. This sermon by Todd was conceived as a result of a letter I wrote to him. I love Todd. He and I obviously disagree on this point. I believed the same as he does until through much study and prayer I came to see things differently. That is why I wrote the letter to him. He and I both learned most of what we know of the gospel through our beloved pastor Henry Mahan. I do not mean to cause division, I simply believed this issue was important enough to take another look at it. I have studied scripture since I was 10 years old and to change my mind using what I already know would be a miracle. The bottom line is how literal do you want to interpret scripture. Do you take God's promises to Abraham, David, Mary, and the apostles literally or not. That will determine which side of the argument you fall. I believe that if you search sincerely and pray for Truth, God will show it to you.
“ The called out, or called forth ” Alvin, it is unapropriate in your count to compare two terms that do not match, say a proper noun, Israel, with a generic noun, church, though both relate to the ones 'being called out, or brought forth', as Abraham, Moses, Israel, and all those responding to the call of the gospel are. In this sense we can say that the church existed from the very beginning, as back as when the children of Seth began to call upon the name of the Lord. This is why Stephen spoke of a church - a people called out- in the wilderness: "Moses ... said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was *in the church (ekklÄ“sia) in the wilderness* with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us." The Hebrew concept equivalent to the Greek ekklÄ“sia, church, would be found in the OT by searching for words as assembly, company, congregation, multitude, or people. E.g. "the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD ... in the *congregation of the saints* " or "thou shalt have none that shall cast a cord by lot in the *congregation of the LORD* ", or "there was a plague in the congregation of the LORD" etc...
“ Tribes of Israel and apostles in the New Jerusalem ” "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as *a bride* adorned for her husband ... And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ... and had twelve gates ... and names written thereon, which are the names of the *twelve tribes of the children of Israel* ... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the *twelve apostles of the Lamb* ."
“ Three persons, One God ” Jerimiah 3:14, "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married to you..." The woman with a crown of twelve stars in Revelation had a child. Satan tried to devour that child. This child who was to rule all nations was revealed in verses 10 and 11 to be Christ. This child's Father was God. His mother was not the Church. The Church is described as a virgin. The mother of this child is..., You guessed it. Christ was born of Israel. If you simply say that every time the Bible mentions Israel they are symbolic of the Church then there is no point in debate. Your mind is made up. But it would be instructive to point out that the word Israel occurs 2301 times in the Bible. The word Church occurs 76 times if I count right. Saint Augustine was the one who popularized Replacement Theology. He did not believe it until he decided to adopted a system of comprehending the Bible that heavily allegorized the Bible. I believe if you error one way or the other the safest way would be to take the Bible more literally. That is just the way God has taught me to love and understand the Bible. Of course I want everyone to see what I see, but I know not everyone will. But we won't have to wait long to find out how the story ends. God bless all who love to study. I love this kind of study.
“ Only one bride ” There is only one bride because Jesus stated that "I and my Father *are one*." There are not two routes to the New Jerusalem, because any person redeemed is the new Jerusalem. See, "... these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem *which now is*, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." Gal.4. Sorry, but there is no mention of an earthly plan B for ethnic Israel, and plan A for the church, except in the minds of dispensationalists.
“ YES! Redemption is a unilateral design ” All who are saved are saved through Christ who was born of the line of David who was born in the line of Abraham. That has nothing to do with the different roles the bride of the Father (Israel) and the bride of Christ (The Church) play in this world. Yes, in the end we dwell together in the New Jerusalem and all saved by the blood of our precious Savior, The Lord Jesus Christ. And all who are saved are The Elect whether they be Jew or Gentile. Glory be to our God who is just in all His ways and is a covenant keeping God!
“ Redemption, an unilateral design ” God has only one plan of redemption, and as a means to bring it to pass he chosed an ethnic group, headed by Abraham. The land, nationality, concept of a kingdom, or circumcision are merely visible tokens of eternal realities, illustrating, as types do, concepts and truths, but are not the 'actual' things. Passages mistakenly attributed to a supposed millenial phase simply describe in figures of speech the consummation of the gospel age. E.g."...the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped ... the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert ... and an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over ... No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: and the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away" Is.35 Limiting David's kingdom to a millenium affronts these truths, because "the Lord God shall give unto (Jesus) the throne of his father David ... and of his kingdom there shall be *no end* " Lk. 1
“ More to ponder ” We know that not all Jews are saved and that all who are of natural Israel are not of spiritual Israel, but the scripture is still speaking of Jews in either case. That does not have anything to do with the separate paths of the Church and Israel. In the end Jews and Gentiles are both redeemed by the blood of Christ; those that are saved. But they do have different roles in this world. If you study for yourself and recognize it there are more scriptures related to the millennium than there are about Christ while He walked here on earth the first time. That is my challenge to those who would be like those of Berea who were more noble than the Thessalonians. Not everyone who is in the Church is of the spiritual Church either.
“ Adam & Clint, some passages to ponder here ” " ... the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, *preached before the gospel* unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed ... therefore ... they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" (Gal.3), for "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel ... They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Abraham) received the 'sign' of circumcision, a 'seal' of the righteousness of the faith ... being uncircumcised: that he might be the *father of all them that believe*, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also ... And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, ... " "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit ... not in the letter; ... " "So then they which be of faith *are blessed with faithful Abraham*" (Rm.4,9,2) Land, nationality or circumcision stand as visual tokens (signs or seals) in Abraham for those that believe.
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