James Thomas wrote: Thanks for your thoughts John, I am not sure how much longer this particular story will be available to post on but I do not mind sharing but at the present time my schedule is a bit hectic. When time permits and a new story comes along to comment on that relates, perhaps I will then be in a better position to further the dialogue. In the mean time, I think digging into this verse and its context, apart from a strict literal hermeneutic, can be a start. Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Blessings to you!
Thanks James, whatever and whenever. From what I've read thus far, Babylon disappeared as an actual place many years ago, being judged by God, and is no more.
Thanks for your thoughts John, I am not sure how much longer this particular story will be available to post on but I do not mind sharing but at the present time my schedule is a bit hectic. When time permits and a new story comes along to comment on that relates, perhaps I will then be in a better position to further the dialogue. In the mean time, I think digging into this verse and its context, apart from a strict literal hermeneutic, can be a start.
Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
James Thomas wrote: ... The problem is that many try to interpret the Revelation as a stand alone book, severed from the Scripture that precedes it when there is Scripture that can and does help lead in the unknowns by looking back into the prophets and even many of the NT writings for citations as there are many examples of the same Scriptural figures discussed there which are also mentioned in the Revelation.
Absolutely agree with you, James. It is not a book to separate and try to understand without the former scriptures. There is no doubt in my mind that the aged John (late 90's) was well studied in the OT and that many of the visions he experienced which were written in the book of Revelations were a pictorial way of showing the selfsame things that he already knew. When I say "knew", I don't necessarily mean "understand", because during the visions he would ask questions, as if he was grappling with the subject.
Now James, if you yourself have been edified by something, it is never a bad thing to seek to show it to others, in the hope of them also being edified. So if there is more to this than mere intellectual curiosity, I encourage you to share your thoughts.
I will admit this is a difficult topic to openly discuss. It is understandable how many are locked into the traditional teaching of the congregation they regularly attend regarding this topic or watched the Left behind movies or some other material someone wrote. The problem is that many try to interpret the Revelation as a stand alone book, severed from the Scripture that precedes it when there is Scripture that can and does help lead in the unknowns by looking back into the prophets and even many of the NT writings for citations as there are many examples of the same Scriptural figures discussed there which are also mentioned in the Revelation. While I do not believe Mystery Babylon is Rome, I do believe the RC machine did pick up where she left off and patterned itself after the great lie of Works + Faith.
"DEMETRIUS-ROMANUS" aka "DEMETRIUS-THE-ROMAN[IAN]": 243-YRS-OLD: BORN IN THE YEAR 1776-AD TO HIS MORTAL/GENETIC-ROMAN[IAN]-MOTHER-ELISABETHA & HIS IMMORTAL/GENETIC-FATHER:
LUCIFER/SATAN/THE-DEVIL;
WHO UNDER DIVINE INSPIRATION IS RECORDED IN THE 66-BOOKS OF THE 1 & ONLY HOLY TRUE HEBREW/CHRISTIAN BIBLE.
A DETAILED RECORD OF DEMETRIUS-ROMANUS IS ARCHIVED AT A LIBRARY/MUSEUM IN LONDON, ENGLAND SINCE HIS BIRTH;
BORN AT A BORDER-TOWN TO HIS MOTHER: WHO WAS A "VIRGIN"-WITCH & MEMBER OF A COVEN IN ROMANIA DURING THE 1700s; WHO SEXUALLY OFFERED THEMSELVES TO SATAN:
FOR THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING FORTH HIS "SON" INTO THE WORLD.
& ALTHOUGH HE'S KNOWN IN THE O.T. AS "A KING OF FIERCE COUNTENANCE, AND UNDERSTANDING DARK SENTENCES, (WHO) SHALL STAND UP"-DANIEL 8:23;
HE'S KNOWN IN THE N.T. AS "THE BEAST/'ANTICHRIST' ", "THAT WICKED (ONE)", "THE MAN OF SIN", "THE SON OF PERDITION":
& SINCE HIS BIRTH IN 1776; HIS IDENTITY HAS BEEN KEPT FROM THE WORLD 'TIL HE "BE REVEALED";
ALBEIT, THERE'S AN INNER-CIRCLE WHO'VE KNOWN OF HIS EXISTENCE SINCE THE EARLY-1800s;
Q:WHO IS +"THE [ANTICHRIST-(SEA-)]BEAST"+ OF REVELATION CHAPTER 13 ?
A:"DEMETRIUS-ROMANUS" aka "DEMETRIUS-THE-ROMAN[IAN]": 243-YRS-OLD: BORN IN THE SOLAR/LUNAR-YR 1776/1777-AD TO HIS MORTAL/GENETIC-ROMAN[IAN]-MOTHER-"ELISABETHA" & HIS IMMORTAL/GENETIC-FATHER:
+++LUCIFER/SATAN/THE-DEVIL/DRAGON-HIMSELF+++;
WHO UNDER DIVINE INSPIRATION IS RECORDED IN THE 66-BOOKS OF THE 1 & ONLY HEBREW/CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL/BIBLE SCRIPTURE/WRIT.
A DETAILED RECORD OF +DEMETRIUS-ROMANUS+ IS ARCHIVED/KEPT AT A LIBRARY/MUSEUM IN LONDON, ENGLAND/UK SINCE HIS BIRTH IN ROMANIA OR ROMAN[IA]-ENVIRONS;
BORN AT A BORDER-CROSSING/TOWN "IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE" TO HIS MOTHER ELISABETHA: WHO WAS A "VIRGIN"-WITCH & MEMBER OF A COVEN IN ROMANIA DURING THE 1700s; WHO SEXUALLY OFFERED THEMSELVES TO SATAN:
FOR THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING FORTH LUCIFER'S "SON" INTO THE WORLD.
& ALTHOUGH HE'S KNOWN IN OLD-TESTAMENT HOLY-WRIT AS "A KING OF FIERCE COUNTENANCE, AND UNDERSTANDING DARK SENTENCES, (WHO) SHALL STAND UP"--DANIEL 8:23;
HE'S KNOWN IN NEW-TESTAMENT HOLY-WRIT AS "THE BEAST/'ANTICHRIST' ", "THAT WICKED (ONE)", "THE MAN OF SIN", "THE SON OF PERDITION"/HELL/DESTRUCTION, ETC:
& SINCE HIS BIRTH IN 1776/1777-AD; HIS IDENTITY HAS BEEN KEPT/HIDDEN/SECRET FROM THE WORLD UNTIL HIS REVELATION OR WHEN... !
"AND I (THE APOSTLE JOHN) BEHELD ANOTHER BEAST COMING UP OUT OF THE EARTH; AND HE HAD TWO HORNS (#1-RELIGIOUS-HORN & #2-POLITICAL-HORN) LIKE A LAMB (BLASPHEMING THE TRUE LAMB OF GOD: JESUS-CHRIST), AND HE SPAKE AS A DRAGON (ie A 'JESUIT').
AND HE EXERCISETH ALL THE POWER OF +THE FIRST BEAST+ BEFORE HIM, AND CAUSETH THE EARTH AND THEM WHICH DWELL THEREIN TO WORSHIP +THE FIRST BEAST+..."-REVELATION 13:11-12b
Q:WHO'S "+THE FIRST BEAST+ BEFORE HIM" (v12a) ?
A:"DEMETRIUS-ROMANUS" aka "DEMETRIUS-THE-ROMAN[IAN]": 243-YRS-OLD: BORN IN THE SOLAR/LUNAR-YR 1776/1777-AD TO HIS MORTAL/GENETIC-ROMAN[IAN]-MOTHER-"ELISABETHA" & HIS IMMORTAL/GENETIC-FATHER:
+++LUCIFER/SATAN/THE-DEVIL/DRAGON-HIMSELF+++
WHO UNDER DIVINE INSPIRATION IS RECORDED OF IN THE 66-BOOKS OF THE ONE & ONLY HEBREW/CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL/BIBLE SCRIPTURE/WRIT.
A DETAILED RECORD OF +DEMETRIUS-ROMANUS+ IS ARCHIVED/KEPT AT A LIBRARY/MUSEUM IN LONDON, ENGLAND/UK SINCE HIS BIRTH IN ROMANIA Or ROMAN[IA]-ENVIRONS;
THAT IS, AT A BORDER CROSSING/TOWN "IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE" TO HIS MOTHER, ELISABETHA, WHO WAS A "VIRGIN"-WITCH & MEMBER OF AN OCCULT/WITCH'S COVEN/CULT OF WOMEN IN ROMANIA DURING THE LATE-1700s;
FOR THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING FORTH HIS "SON" INTO THE WORLD.
Yes, BM, and your #1 on the list is the main issue that always hit my thoughts first. Prior indoctrination; the things we learned at first are difficult for many to overcome, because there comes a point when they become hardwired. Then, the older we get, and the more time that passes by, well, the scales have grown thick and hardened, so no matter what is presented, it's, "Nope, nope, and nope", as far as trying to argue against anything, and doing it by using scripture alone. I was a perfect example of this when I came on board...I knew everything already, as the result of all that I had been taught at first. So, when some of the fine folks here began to take me to task, I thought they were a bunch of nuts, and SA was home base for some poor, deluded souls. I was the one who was wrong on some things, and thanks to God for keeping my mind open and pliable.
Thanks for the thoughts, Frank, and very interesting comment about the emergent church.
Hey John, just to clarify, I was speaking to any topic, in general, and not just the one being discussed. I dont know, either.
John Y...just out of curiosity, why 2yrs old, as opposed to as an infant? Was the little girl adopted?
Rnel wrote: Yes I totally agree with you on the apostles and prophets. Luke 13:33-34 Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Thank you Rnel, brother. I will consider all these things, but my primary concern is the practical outworking of the doctrines I do understand. I realise that in America, this issue is important, because of some there who support fanatically the Jews and Zion. But in the UK there is no such thing. Ask anyone here what Zion is, and they will look at you with a vacant stare, before going, "Eh?"
Christopher000 wrote: So many arrive at so many differing conclusions, but the problem is that everyone knows they are right.
All except me, bro. I do not know whether it be Rome, or Zion, or San Francisco, or a system of works-righteousness.
Jer 51:2 And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about.
The her is Babylon. In trying to understand what this specific group would fan Babylon with, I came across this.
Isa 41:16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 41:27 ....I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.
Could that One that God promised to bring Good tidings be Paul as He cited this verse in Isaiah...
Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Here:
Rom. 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
Christopher000 wrote: The old reformers, and anyone else, before, or since, had good reason to refer to the Roman religious machine, and its Papacy, etc., as mystery Babylon; the great harlot. We don't believe this because others merely said so, and we follow blindly, but rather, scripture points to it, and describes it pretty clearly, in my opinion. I'm not quite sure how anyone arrives at any other conclusion, unless cherry-picked descriptors are being pulled out to build the case. As a whole, prophetic scripture seems to point straight to Rome. I think anyone who believes that Israel is the great harlot, has to work really, really hard to build that case, and build it with very scant prooftexts. I'm not claiming to know for certain, but what I've studied, just doesn't jive any other way.
This past Sunday at my Baptist Church the sermon given by Pastor Steve was titled "Family Matters" from Ephesians 5:15-21. There was also a child dedication in which the 2 year old daughter of the Associate Pastor was dedicated to Jesus.
Christopher000 wrote: ... so many differing conclusions, but the problem is that everyone knows they are right.
Scriptures explain this connondrum as due to,
1. Personal baggage we badly adhere to that needs to be shaded off, as presuppositions, upbringing, exposure, or unaware ignorance, Hebrews 12:1,
2. The flesh, which in reality is made of unchecked egos, and mared, unsanctified or adulterated consciences dictating choice.
3. Playing 'God', personal infability, led by a puffed up disposition.
4. Dishonesty, hence the warning to rightly divide the word of truth.
5. Reluctance to admit to truth as obstinate preferences or allegiances, or personal reputation may be affected, and/or lifestyles might require change. Romans 12:1
Christopher000 wrote: Confirmation, once again, of why there are so many branches; denominations within Christendom...so many different ways of interpreting lines, and portions of scripture. So many arrive at so many differing conclusions, but the problem is that everyone knows they are right.
First of all Chris, let me say that I am “not” disagreeing with your premise. I and many other Christians sometimes think we have all the answers and we become stubborn and obstinate. But, here is a sort of warning as to where the opposite approach sometimes leads us.
I remember reading an article about the Emergent Church. What it basically said was if Christians got together to study a bible verse and they couldn’t come to an agreement as to the original meaning, then it was wrong for any of them to say the verse means this or that. IOW, they thought that dissent among believers meant there was no absolute truth to the verse in question.
I know personally when I feel 100% that I am correct then nothing can dissuade me from that position. Logically disagreement shouldn't mean that someone doesn't in fact understand the verse or verses in question.
I hate the statement: “we will agree to disagree”, but I also use it sometimes.
Yes that is so true Chris, and people do believe that they are right and I think we must always stay open to the fact that we won’t know everything as the Lord does for the latter days in his word.
Its very hard to change your thinking when you realise that you where wrong on these things but sometimes it is necessary to keep us from knowledge that puffs up.
I remember when I changed from years of believing in a pre trib secret rapture to a post trib every eye seeing, loud appearing of the Lord to meet Him in the air.
Interesting conversation. I, for one, would like to see it continue on the forum, but realize that the character limit might be too limiting. I'd like to see SA increase the forum character limitation, because it wouldn't exactly impact server loads, but that'll probably remain a pipedream.
Anyway, it's always interesting to read other perspectives on things, but for me, the most interesting part is how people arrive at this and that from scripture. Confirmation, once again, of why there are so many branches; denominations within Christendom...so many different ways of interpreting lines, and portions of scripture. So many arrive at so many differing conclusions, but the problem is that everyone knows they are right.
Yes I totally agree with you on the apostles and prophets.
Luke 13:33-34 Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
The biggest reason why people are stuck with Rome as the whore is because that is all over the show with books and books and the problem is they never spend quality time in the Old Testament to see God dealings with Jerusalem. They just believe that because the reformers and many faithful men said so.
BUT here is my believe why its changed.
But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” — Daniel 12:4
I believe that more and more people will start to see the truth about the Harlot and the Beast that carries her.
Brother I would love to share more with you on this but I think over email would be best.
I am a brother😃 In have been studying this for 3 years. There is so much about this very hard to mention everything on here.
This is a very difficult topic and study. There is always this tendency to think of Jerusalem otherwise because of the history there with our Lord. Jesus himself wept over her.
But we know that not all the jews will be saved but all the Israel of God will be in the end.
Therefore I believe that Rev 18:4 is referring to those remnant Jews. They will come to repentance by the preaching of the two witnesses in Rev 11🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
O strongly believe that Christ will have a new temple Ezek 40-46 in his 1000 year reign.
To my own speculation(not necessarily in scripture) we as God priests might build the temple and city where all will dwell in savely for the 1000 years.
We know after the final battle and the new heavens and earth the Lamb wife(New Jerusalem) will come down to be on earth forever.
Dr. Alan Cairns | 8/3/2009
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