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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | Fridays | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  9/23/2018
THURSDAY, AUG 16, 2018  |  47 comments
Changes to Lord’s Prayer to Be Made Official in Italy
The Italian bishops conference announced Tuesday that changes to the Lord’s Prayer proposed by Pope Francis will take effect in Italy this November.

Last December, Pope Francis proposed changing the text of the Lord’s Prayer, or “Our Father,” saying the current translations are flawed because they suggest that God could be the source of temptation.

“This is not a good translation,” the pope said in an interview on Italian television, referring to the Italian text of the line: “Lead us not into temptation.”

A better rendering of the petition would be: “Do not let me fall into temptation,” Francis said. ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.breitbart.com

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 47 user comment(s)
News Item8/19/18 3:06 PM
MS  Find all comments by MS
Disclaimer to the link I posted:
I do not endorse holyjoe.org.as he is a RC chaplain.
He is not the author of the poem, he just published it on his web-site, along with many other writers of poetry.
47

News Item8/19/18 2:48 PM
MS  Find all comments by MS
When I read this poem that I will link below, it reminded me of this thread.
http://holyjoe.org/poetry/foss3.htm
The Calf-Path.
46

News Item8/19/18 4:44 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
John! Are you alright? Get into a bad batch of carrot juice?
I have no idea where you came up with the above but the broadly accepted tradition I was speaking of was the commentaries you and Adriel posted.
I was going to ask your opinion on "Thy kingdom come", knowing you're an amil, but I changed my mind.
Another time, bro.
I'm good thanks, bro.

I've been trying to work this out, and I believe if you had said "broadly accepted interpretation" rather than "broadly accepted tradition", I would not have fallen off my chair. Why?

Oxford dictionary definition for "tradition" (in theology) is:

Theology
A doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures.

2.1 mass noun (in Christianity) doctrine not explicit in the Bible but held to derive from the oral teaching of Christ and the Apostles.

So you see, brother, that in the UK at least, I see "tradition" in theology as something unbiblical and unwarranted (maybe beloved of mystics etc.) and therefore to say that John Calvin, John Ryle and John Gill (and Adriel's Catechism writers) all held broadly accepted traditions, makes them.......

Thy kingdom come sounds like a good winter debate - I'll check diary.

45

News Item8/18/18 10:16 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
That's good, brother!
But you've just done it again, and I can hardly believe it. You are referring to these great men of God like Charles Spurgeon and John Owen as if they couldn't read the Bible so took the "traditional" viewpoint of earlier men.
John! Are you alright? Get into a bad batch of carrot juice?

I have no idea where you came up with the above but the broadly accepted tradition I was speaking of was the commentaries you and Adriel posted.

I was going to ask your opinion on "Thy kingdom come", knowing you're an amil, but I changed my mind.

Another time, bro.

44

News Item8/18/18 5:15 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Of course I don't take it badly, John.
To set the record straight, I was never dogmatic about anything in my posts. I never suggested your view was wrong or those you quoted were in error and I made it clear I was thinking out loud trying to make sense of the text in its historical setting and timeline. I'm still thinking on it but there is no sense continuing on here when I'm thought of as a rebel against broadly accepted tradition because I don't immediately jump on the bandwagon.
Have a good day.
That's good, brother!

But you've just done it again, and I can hardly believe it. You are referring to these great men of God like Charles Spurgeon and John Owen as if they couldn't read the Bible so took the "traditional" viewpoint of earlier men.

Imagine, if you will, a long line of Lurkers throughout history, beginning in the time of Reformation. Hence Lurker 1, Lurker 2, Lurker 3, right up to the present day. I don't know, something like 50 generations of Lurkers, and they all had similar views on this subject. Would you call your Lurker beliefs "broadly accepted tradition"?

See what I mean?

43

News Item8/18/18 2:29 PM
Us | America  Find all comments by Us
Isn’t changing Gods word blasphemy?
42

News Item8/18/18 12:14 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
I say this as a friend, and I hope you don't take it badly.
Of course I don't take it badly, John.

To set the record straight, I was never dogmatic about anything in my posts. I never suggested your view was wrong or those you quoted were in error and I made it clear I was thinking out loud trying to make sense of the text in its historical setting and timeline. I'm still thinking on it but there is no sense continuing on here when I'm thought of as a rebel against broadly accepted tradition because I don't immediately jump on the bandwagon.

Have a good day.

41

News Item8/18/18 9:53 AM
Plain Old Tim | Possum Hollow, USA  Find all comments by Plain Old Tim
Lead us--ALL of us--not into temptation.
40

News Item8/18/18 7:14 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
James Thomas wrote:
Good morning Bro.
Agreeing to disagree and moving on is what our Bro was attempting to do from my point of view. I don't see any evidence of your assertions you made. Lurker shared a Scripture that gave some credence to what he was asserting. I don't see that as setting himself up as some teacher but simply trying to bring light to a question by means of other Scripture. As great as the preachers you list were or are...they should not be the measuring stick.
Good morning St James,
I will fill you in on where you are going wrong with this. I have quoted several most excellent (but NOT popish) evangelical, born again teachers of God's word, who are NOT infallible but helpful, seeing as God gave them to the church for their edification, and all over the world, Christians are being blessed by their written ministry, and I expect some are still being saved by their printed sermons and devotions.

Now Bro Lurker is being patronising in his use of the words "Protestant popes", which by interpretation he is saying that I accept mindlessly what these men say, bowing down to them and kissing their feet, which thing is untrue, and shows rather pride in his own abilities to interpret scripture.

39

News Item8/18/18 6:40 AM
James Thomas  Find all comments by James Thomas
Good morning Bro.
Agreeing to disagree and moving on is what our Bro was attempting to do from my point of view. I don't see any evidence of your assertions you made. Lurker shared a Scripture that gave some credence to what he was asserting. I don't see that as setting himself up as some teacher but simply trying to bring light to a question by means of other Scripture. As great as the preachers you list were or are...they should not be the measuring stick.
38

News Item8/18/18 5:44 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
...
John,
I'm a slow learner but I can tell when it's futile to question the Protestant popes so I'll take my leave of the subject. Thanks for the exchange.
Lurker,
I'm a slow learner but I can tell when it's futile to question your private interpretation, so I'll take my leave of the subject. Thanks for the exchange.

BTW, the above comment was written in love and grace, hoping that you might see how ridiculous is your stance on so-called "Protestant popes", who are teachers anointed by God to assist God's people to a deeper understanding of the scriptures. Such men as Charles Spurgeon, John Calvin, Bishop Ryle, Thomas Manton, Arthur Pink, James Smith, John Owen, John Gill, George Whitefield, Daniel Rowland, and a whole host of other brethren whom God mightily anointed to teach and preach the word of God with signs following.

Now if you want to stand aloof, and set yourself apart as some great and mighty teacher of the word, while seeing all these others as "Protestant popes", you may consider your position to be similar to that of secretive cults with bizarre beliefs with no historical support.

I say this as a friend, and I hope you don't take it badly.

37

News Item8/17/18 11:20 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Thanks John, Adriel and Christopher for your thoughts.
John Mackay wrote:
Lead us not into temptation implies simply this ;-that God would keep us from falling into sin as we are unable to uphold ourselves without his grace working in us by The Holy Spirit
It is being expressed negatively and it is really saying lead us away from temptation by your Holy Spirit and don’t leave us to ourselves
It's an interesting interpretation but may I respectfully say that at the time the prayer was taught by Jesus the first covenant stood extant and the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent to indwell believers. So while it may sound good it doesn't meet the test.
John UK wrote:
Thanks bro but I reckon you're barking up the wrong olive.
John,

I'm a slow learner but I can tell when it's futile to question the Protestant popes so I'll take my leave of the subject. Thanks for the exchange.

36

News Item8/17/18 8:43 PM
Pedro | Mexico  Find all comments by Pedro
In Spanish reads”don’t let us fall into temptation”
35

News Item8/17/18 6:21 PM
John Mackay | Scotland  Find all comments by John Mackay
Thanks Christopher
34

News Item8/17/18 5:02 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Hi John M, we must have been commenting at the same time. I just read your summary, and you expressed my own thoughts on it...thanks.
33

News Item8/17/18 5:00 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Hi Lurker and John, I came upon this illustration which I thought was interesting. The article also expounded on, "...lead us not into temptation" further, if interested. Anyway:

Jesus’ words “Lead us not into temptation” like this: a mother takes her young children grocery shopping with her and comes to the candy aisle. She knows that taking her children down that aisle will only stir up greediness in their hearts and lead to bouts of whining and pouting. In wisdom, she takes another route—whatever she may have needed down the candy aisle will have to wait for another day. In this way the mother averts unpleasantness and spares her children a trial. Praying, “Lead us not into temptation,” is like praying, “God, don’t take me down the candy aisle today.” It’s recognizing that we naturally grasp for unprofitable things and that God’s wisdom can avert the unpleasantness of our bellyaching.

Whether we are asking for God to lead us away from sin or from difficult trials, our goal is found in the second part of verse 13: “Deliver us from the evil one.” A petition similar to this is offered by David in Psalm 141:4: “Do not let my heart be drawn to what is evil so that I take part in wicked deeds along with those who are evildoers; do not let me eat their delicacies.”

32

News Item8/17/18 4:58 PM
John Mackay | Scotland  Find all comments by John Mackay
Lead us not into temptation implies simply this ;-that God would keep us from falling into sin as we are unable to uphold ourselves without his grace working in us by The Holy Spirit
It is being expressed negatively and it is really saying lead us away from temptation by your Holy Spirit and don’t leave us to ourselves
31

News Item8/17/18 4:27 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Thanks John,
I'm off for my days duties but will look into this more this evening.
Where I'm stuck is the words "lead us not". That doesn't imply "Don't let me fall..." or anything similar as the commentaries suggest. What it does imply, at least in my mind, is that some (not those who pray with a sincere heart) will, in fact, be led into temptation by God and clearly not for their good but for their eternal damnation.
Thanks bro but I reckon you're barking up the wrong olive.

Yes it's a fact that there will always be those who worship God with their lips but their hearts far from him. And that this hypocrisy is punishable with severity.

However, I do believe that Adriel's Larger Catechism Q195 sums the verse up in great detail, and for sure I can say that it has been my own experience since conversion. These experiences have a somewhat good effect, as they would wean the soul off the world and all it has, and give unto it strong desires after a better place, and more, to be totally freed from indwelling corruption and tendency to sin, the old nature, which thing is found distasteful in the mind of God's people, longing for purity and perfect holiness in every part.

30

News Item8/17/18 3:16 PM
Adriel  Find all comments by Adriel
"In the sixth petition, (which is, And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, acknowledging, that the most wise, righteous, and gracious God, for divers holy and just ends, may so order things, that we may be assaulted, foiled, and for a time led captive by temptations; that Satan, the world, and the flesh, are ready powerfully to draw us aside, and ensnare us; and that we, even after the pardon of our sins, by reason of our corruption, weakness, and want of watchfulness, are not only subject to be tempted, and forward to expose ourselves unto temptations, but also of ourselves unable and unwilling to resist them, to recover out of them, and to improve them; and worthy to be left under the power of them: we pray, that God would so overrule the world and all in it, subdue the flesh, and restrain Satan, order all things, bestow and bless all means of grace, and quicken us to watchfulness in the use of them, that we and all his people may by his providence be kept from being tempted to sin; or, if tempted, that by his Spirit we may be powerfully supported and enabled to stand in the hour of temptation; or when fallen, raised again and recovered out of it, and have a sanctified use and improvement thereof:...."
(Larger Catechism. Q195)
29

News Item8/17/18 2:48 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
I don't think you are missing anything, bro.
John Gill says, "There are various sorts of temptations."

"Now, in this petition, the children of God pray, that they may be kept from every occasion and object of sinning; from those sins they are most inclined to; that God would not leave them to Satan, and their own corrupt hearts; nor suffer them to sink under the weight of temptations of any sort; but that, in the issue, they might have a way to escape, and be victorious over all." JG

Thanks John,

I'm off for my days duties but will look into this more this evening.

Where I'm stuck is the words "lead us not". That doesn't imply "Don't let me fall..." or anything similar as the commentaries suggest. What it does imply, at least in my mind, is that some (not those who pray with a sincere heart) will, in fact, be led into temptation by God and clearly not for their good but for their eternal damnation.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I rather believe this is the temptation being spoken of in the prayer.

28
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