â€śAnd I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;â€ť â€â€1 Timothyâ€¬ â€1:12â€¬
Why did God enabled Paul for ministry? God counted Paul faithful! Paul expressed faith first and was placed into ministry. It has nothing to do with the Calvinist idea that people must be forced to believe because they cannot otherwise.
â€śBy whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€5:2â€¬
As you pointed out, 5:1 says we must have faith to be justified. Verse 2 says we donâ€™t even have access to His grace unless we first believe.
â€śthrough whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His nameâ€™s sake,â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€1:5â€¬
Faith in scripture is our obedient act!
â€śbut now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€16:26â€¬
The obedience of faith is brought about by the preaching of Scriptures.
Lurker... I pray for you if you think I didnâ€™t know who Esau was! I even said he was the son of Isaac. Usually when someone says they arenâ€™t sure what my point is, I try to explain myself better, but not you! Sad I canâ€™t have an adult conversation with someone your age, oh well.
Who is chosen? It is â€śusâ€ť! Who are they? Faithful saints. God chose believers to be holy and blameless before Him. Has that happened? Not yet, but when it does we will be holy and blameless before Him because of Jesus Christ. This is referring to the time when Christ has set up His kingdom and it is given over to the Father. Letâ€™s face it, we arenâ€™t holy and blameless yet. If that happened before the foundation of the world there would have been no need for Jesus to die for our sins.
â€śThat in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:â€ť â€â€Ephesiansâ€¬ â€1:10â€¬
Romans 9 is also looking forward to the time when we are conformed into the image of Jesus who is the firstborn of many brethren. It demonstrates how all things will work together for our good in Christ. It is not saying we were chosen to be saved before time, regardless of faith, or against our wills.
If you donâ€™t get the hang up, you might not understand all of the teachings of the Reformed church. They teach men are unable to believe in God, so God has to overwhelm their desire to reject Him by forcing His will on them. It all boils down to their misunderstanding of what faith is and how it works. They believe God must produce faith within people or people have somehow saved themselves. Now there are no places in scripture where the idea of faith being a work is taught, but they still believe if someone can have faith without God casting His spell on them, they arenâ€™t really saved because they tried to earn their salvation.
Look at all of the times â€śelectâ€ť etc is mentioned in scripture relating to salvation and it is always those who already believe, without exception! The elect in Christ.
I went to NE once to see the Corn Palace and it was burnt down when We got there. That was years ago! I went through there a couple of years ago and there were a ton of whooping cranes all over the place.
Esau was of the seed of Isaac. Iâ€™m not sure of your point with that. A leopard canâ€™t change their spots. I have my mind made up about that! You are not literally of the seed of Abraham, I hope you understand the allegory.
Is there unrighteousness with God for choosing to offer the promises of Israel to the Gentiles? The person arguing is a Jew arguing against what God chose to do! Calvin wasnâ€™t even born yet, this has nothing to do with an inability to believe in Jesus. It does speak to the unconditional election of whom God chooses for His purposes. However, not according to salvation! The offer of salvation does have a condition, it is faith!
â€śFor this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.â€ť â€â€Matthewâ€¬ â€13:15â€¬
The people closed their eyes because they didnâ€™t want to believe. Correct? Did God bring their blindness about? Yes. Did the Jews not want to believe? Yes. If he Jews wanted to believe, would they have been blinded? No!
Remember, we were all once tares!
â€śNor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.â€ť â€â€1 Corinthiansâ€¬ â€6:10-11â€¬
We who have believed were all tares until we obeyed and believed the gospel.
â€śBut God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€6:17â€¬
If God forces people to believe like Calvinism teaches, it makes me wonder why Jesus wept over Jerusalem.
â€śO Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!â€ť â€â€Lukeâ€¬ â€13:34â€¬
Itâ€™s almost like they had free will to believe in God or not! He says He wanted to gather them, but they would not. Didnâ€™t God know He could just override their will and make them believe?!
â€śFor thus saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not. But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses;...â€ť â€â€Isaiahâ€¬ â€30:15-16â€¬
I didnâ€™t think people could tell God no?
â€śBut the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected Godâ€™s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.â€ť â€â€Lukeâ€¬ â€7:30â€¬
God had wanted the Pharisees to be baptized and they rejected His purpose for them. They override Godâ€™s will for them!
No, the leopard canâ€™t change itâ€™s spots, but God can and does change a sinner into a new creation after they believe. Believing and salvation are two different things.
I donâ€™t totally agree with your list, but I do agree that Calvinism is more fatalistic. Faith somehow earning salvation and election are probably the two biggest confusions for Calvinist. Faith is not a work of salvation. Yet Calvinist get butt hurt when someone says they were saved by faith as if the person is saying they earned their salvation. Whenever God selects a person for something like eternal life, that person is said to be elect. However, that selection doesnâ€™t take place until they first believe. God doesnâ€™t elect unbelievers, He selects the faithful unto salvation.
No, being forced to believe like Calvinism teaches, is not found in scripture. Now comes the denials. However, if a person who doesnâ€™t want to believe is made willing to believe against their previous desires, then that is forced and really a contrived faith. God doesnâ€™t need or want that kind of â€śfaithâ€ť.
God hasnâ€™t appointed believers to wrath, but ordained them for eternal life after they believed. People arenâ€™t saved prior to being saved! People are appointed to wrath and if they believe, they will be appointed to eternal life. Donâ€™t believe me?
â€śKnow ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.â€ť â€â€1 Corinthiansâ€¬ â€6:9-11â€¬
The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, but some of you believe there are unrighteous people who are going to inherit the kingdom of God. Contrary to what God says! Believers were in the same boat as unbelievers prior to faith. All who are ordained to eternal life believed. Their act of believing is in the past tense. Nobody has been ordained for eternal life prior to having already believed.
The example you give of Jeremiah doesnâ€™t say anything about him being forced to believe or that he was ordained to eternal
Just a fact some wonâ€™t admit too. Only believers are ordained to eternal life. There isnâ€™t a soul alive who is ordained to eternal life prior to believing.
â€śAmong whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedâ€ť â€â€Ephesiansâ€¬ â€2:3-5â€¬
We were all children of wrath like every other person. Thatâ€™s what we were ordained for! Some here pretend they were never ordained to receive Godâ€™s wrath. How silly!
â€śMake the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.â€ť â€â€Isaiahâ€¬ â€6:10â€¬
This is why Jesus spoke in parables. He didnâ€™t want them to understand after first rejecting Him. The decree by God is if you believe, you will receive eternal life. Your text donâ€™t have anything to do with a supposed inability to believe. Rather, they prove that a blindness must take place to keep them from believing and it happens only after God determines those who rejected Him will be punished in that manner.
They were ordained to eternal life because they believed. Unless you think unbelievers are ordained to eternal life, which is never taught in scriptures. The group of people ordained here were believers first.
To say the Gentiles were ordained to eternal life before believing is opposite of everything that is taught in scripture about faith preceding eternal life. Only believers are ordained to eternal life, to the Jew first and then the Gentiles. Unbelievers will not receive eternal life and arenâ€™t ordained too. All who now believe were previously of the group ordained to wrath when they were still dead in their trespasses and sins, but upon faith they were ordained to eternal life. Remember the context. The promises came through the Jews and now all may receive the promise of eternal life, Jew and Gentile alike.
Itâ€™s not fatalistic if they were given a chance to believe and chose not too! Even some of the ones who were blinded in Jesusâ€™ day eventually believed in Him after the resurrection. James, the brother of Jesus, didnâ€™t believe and later did. He was blind to who his is own brother was and yet he later believed. Blindness doesnâ€™t even have to be permanent. However, it is only done to those who first reject God after having been given chances to believe. It shows that sinners can believe if they choose too and must be made blinded as to not believe, otherwise why blind them at all?
Thatâ€™s exactly my point. It shows that people have the ability to believe otherwise there would be no reason to blind them to the truth!
â€śAnd in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.â€ť â€â€Matthewâ€¬ â€13:14-15â€¬
I believe God doesnâ€™t want to force anyone into believing or not believing. If you want to believe, God wonâ€™t prevent you from it and if you donâ€™t want to believe, God wonâ€™t make you. He blinds unbelievers as to not force them by the overwhelming evidence. Especially in that particular case where they had rejected God and now His Son was there performing signs and miracles which may have forced them to believe when they otherwise would not have wanted too.
God is explaining to them His covenant with them as pertaining to The Promise Land. They arenâ€™t even talking about salvation. Now, if they were, we know that God will blind people from the truth who already did not trust in Him previously.
â€śBecause thou servedst not the Lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;â€ť â€â€Deuteronomyâ€¬ â€28:47â€¬
It is always unbelievers and the disobedient who are later blinded because of their prior rejection of the truth. Makes one wonder why people who supposedly are unable to believe to begin with must be made blind and unable to perceive what they canâ€™t understand anyways? Unless that is all wrong!
Jacob Arminius believed people in their natural state could not understand the gospel, like Calvinist. The difference being, once a person is enabled to believe, it is still their choice to believe. Calvinist believe it is fatalistically determined that a person who is enabled to believe will believe no matter what because God overrides their will and doesnâ€™t give them a choice. Theyâ€™re both wrong!
â€śSo then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€10:17
Faith comes by hearing the word of God and not by magic spells.
Some people pretend like God has to force Himself on others in order to get people to like Him. Poor God they have and totally unbiblical! He commanded His disciple to have nothing to do with cities who willfully disobeyed the gospel message. God didnâ€™t say, rape and pillage their towns and make them believe! Why was Jesus so full of sorrow if not for the fact that people would not believe? Yet, He never forced them too!