As the man said, â€śthis cannot mean that Christ so took upon Himself the sins of the people as to become Himself a sinnerâ€ť and â€śThey (sins) cannot be literally transferred to anotherâ€ť. What happened is Jesus bared the consequence of our sins, but not the culpability for them. The consequence being, suffering death when He had no business dying.
Jesus did suffer for our sins. He was beaten and died for our sins, because of our sins. He just wasnâ€™t culpable or guilty for each and every sin which people have ever committed. Jesus would still be in the grave if that were the case. For one, just for my sins alone, He would have to be punished eternally and would still be dead until my sins were paid for. Yet, Jesus hasnâ€™t suffered the consequences for my sins, or anyone elseâ€™s, by the fact of His resurrection. Two, if He weâ€™re guilty of individual sins, He would have been an imperfect sacrifice and unworthy of being resurrected.
So what did the cross accomplish? Jesus having satisfied the requirements of the law and being unjustly put to death, being innocent from the guilt of sin by God (the Father), was raised to life in a new resurrected body.
So what did that accomplish? When Jesus ascended to Heaven, God the Father gave the Holy Spirit to all who believe. Now those who are in Christ are no longer guilty of sin because of the righteousness of Christ.
â€śTherefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€6:4â€¬
â€śAnd hath raised us up together, and made us sit together
â€śAnd as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.â€ť â€â€Johnâ€¬ â€3:14-17â€¬
If I were asked, I would say God lobes the world because that is what Jesus said.
They believe, not only does God not love all of the little children, He down right hates most of them. His hate for them could have arbitrarily been love, but that just wasnâ€™t how things fatalisticly panned out. Hey, at least we got ours!
The goat of atonement didnâ€™t receive extra punishment from the year before when the Israelis were particularly sinful. Itâ€™s not like the goat was stabbed extra times to suffer for the particular sins of the people. In the same way, Jesus suffered death for our sins, but not extra penalties for each and every sin.
I just gave two examples of people asking what they themselves must do to become saved and the response is to repent and believe. So time and time again, God says this is the way to be saved. Paul was speaking to carnal believers in 1 Corinthians 2, so that is just proof that the natural person can still believe. Itâ€™s harder to join some country clubs than it is to be saved! God makes it easy for one to trust in Him.
â€śCome unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.â€ť â€â€Matthewâ€¬ â€11:28-30â€¬
â€śAnd brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.â€ť â€â€Actsâ€¬ â€16:30-31â€¬
What can a sinner do? They must believe. There is no room for perceiving you are a believer. You must become one through believing of your own accord.
â€śNow when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.â€ť â€â€Actsâ€¬ â€2:37-38â€¬
What can you do? You must repent and believe. You cannot even receive the Holy Spirit until then. Without Him there is no new creature.
The funny thing about Calvinism is it teaches a person must be made good enough to believe, so in essence it teaches salvation by good works, but because God made the person good enough to perform good works, salvation by works is okay? All because the Calvinist canâ€™t get past the fact that faith is not a good work which merits salvation.
â€śAnd so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€11:26â€¬
There is coming a time when all Israel will be saved, meaning they will freely turn to Jesus in faith and believe. This will happen right before His return. Again, it has nothing to do with faith being forced down oneâ€™s throat or an inability to believe.
Calvinism is unbiblical and Spurgeon was wrong. The biblical view doesnâ€™t teach that believing is our work of salvation. Faith doesnâ€™t merit our salvation! It is not a meritorious work of salvation to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Faith doesnâ€™t give something to God whereby He owes us anything. Faith doesnâ€™t produce any work of the law, so it cannot be a work of salvation.
What is all over the place in Scripture? That we are of our own accord to believe and if we donâ€™t want to, God wonâ€™t force us? I agree! I also agree that not a shred of Calvinism is taught in scripture and therefore is a unscriptural construct!
Talk about side stepping! Are those who are ordained to eternal life believers or unbelievers? According to your proof text it is those who believe-ed. Not unbelievers! One cannot even receive grace until they believe.
You are really grasping at straws! The Christian Faith has been delivered to us through the gospel. It doesnâ€™t mean the obedient of faith was forced upon anyone!
The scripture is clear. Those who were ordained to eternal life believed!
â€śAnd when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.â€ť â€â€Actsâ€¬ â€13:48â€¬
God did not and does not ordain unbelievers to eternal life. The group he ordained believed, that is why they were ordained to eternal life. This verse says nothing to an inability within people to obey Godâ€™s commanded and believe. The Bible teaches people can believe if they hear the gospel. Otherwise, how can they? God isnâ€™t going to force them to believe, so there is no other way but through preaching the message of Jesus Christ. God doesnâ€™t need to repent for you and believe for you. He offers salvation to the whole world and we may except or reject Him, no side-stepping about it!
It wasnâ€™t unbelievers chosen before the foundation of the world to be holy before Him, it was those who are in Him (Jesus). These people are believers. God plans for believers to be holy and blameless before Him when we are in His presence. It doesnâ€™t mean He forced any of them to believe. In Romans 9, a outward call is intended, but it only makes sense when you realize he is talking about only those who believed. Everyone is not included.
â€śAnd I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;â€ť â€â€1 Timothyâ€¬ â€1:12â€¬
Why did God enabled Paul for ministry? God counted Paul faithful! Paul expressed faith first and was placed into ministry. It has nothing to do with the Calvinist idea that people must be forced to believe because they cannot otherwise.
â€śBy whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€5:2â€¬
As you pointed out, 5:1 says we must have faith to be justified. Verse 2 says we donâ€™t even have access to His grace unless we first believe.
â€śthrough whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His nameâ€™s sake,â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€1:5â€¬
Faith in scripture is our obedient act!
â€śbut now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€16:26â€¬
The obedience of faith is brought about by the preaching of Scriptures.
Lurker... I pray for you if you think I didnâ€™t know who Esau was! I even said he was the son of Isaac. Usually when someone says they arenâ€™t sure what my point is, I try to explain myself better, but not you! Sad I canâ€™t have an adult conversation with someone your age, oh well.
Who is chosen? It is â€śusâ€ť! Who are they? Faithful saints. God chose believers to be holy and blameless before Him. Has that happened? Not yet, but when it does we will be holy and blameless before Him because of Jesus Christ. This is referring to the time when Christ has set up His kingdom and it is given over to the Father. Letâ€™s face it, we arenâ€™t holy and blameless yet. If that happened before the foundation of the world there would have been no need for Jesus to die for our sins.
â€śThat in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:â€ť â€â€Ephesiansâ€¬ â€1:10â€¬
Romans 9 is also looking forward to the time when we are conformed into the image of Jesus who is the firstborn of many brethren. It demonstrates how all things will work together for our good in Christ. It is not saying we were chosen to be saved before time, regardless of faith, or against our wills.
If you donâ€™t get the hang up, you might not understand all of the teachings of the Reformed church. They teach men are unable to believe in God, so God has to overwhelm their desire to reject Him by forcing His will on them. It all boils down to their misunderstanding of what faith is and how it works. They believe God must produce faith within people or people have somehow saved themselves. Now there are no places in scripture where the idea of faith being a work is taught, but they still believe if someone can have faith without God casting His spell on them, they arenâ€™t really saved because they tried to earn their salvation.
Look at all of the times â€śelectâ€ť etc is mentioned in scripture relating to salvation and it is always those who already believe, without exception! The elect in Christ.
I went to NE once to see the Corn Palace and it was burnt down when We got there. That was years ago! I went through there a couple of years ago and there were a ton of whooping cranes all over the place.
Esau was of the seed of Isaac. Iâ€™m not sure of your point with that. A leopard canâ€™t change their spots. I have my mind made up about that! You are not literally of the seed of Abraham, I hope you understand the allegory.
Is there unrighteousness with God for choosing to offer the promises of Israel to the Gentiles? The person arguing is a Jew arguing against what God chose to do! Calvin wasnâ€™t even born yet, this has nothing to do with an inability to believe in Jesus. It does speak to the unconditional election of whom God chooses for His purposes. However, not according to salvation! The offer of salvation does have a condition, it is faith!
â€śFor this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.â€ť â€â€Matthewâ€¬ â€13:15â€¬
The people closed their eyes because they didnâ€™t want to believe. Correct? Did God bring their blindness about? Yes. Did the Jews not want to believe? Yes. If he Jews wanted to believe, would they have been blinded? No!
Remember, we were all once tares!
â€śNor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.â€ť â€â€1 Corinthiansâ€¬ â€6:10-11â€¬
We who have believed were all tares until we obeyed and believed the gospel.
â€śBut God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€6:17â€¬
If God forces people to believe like Calvinism teaches, it makes me wonder why Jesus wept over Jerusalem.
â€śO Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!â€ť â€â€Lukeâ€¬ â€13:34â€¬
Itâ€™s almost like they had free will to believe in God or not! He says He wanted to gather them, but they would not. Didnâ€™t God know He could just override their will and make them believe?!
â€śFor thus saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not. But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses;...â€ť â€â€Isaiahâ€¬ â€30:15-16â€¬
I didnâ€™t think people could tell God no?
â€śBut the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected Godâ€™s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.â€ť â€â€Lukeâ€¬ â€7:30â€¬
God had wanted the Pharisees to be baptized and they rejected His purpose for them. They override Godâ€™s will for them!