Lurker wrote:
Thanks for your reply.
I mentioned the death of the body and also of the soul. You chose neither but instead replied "spiritual death".
Is spiritual death a third option I failed to offer and if so how do you differentiate it biblically from the death of the soul?

All I can say is that when Adam sinned, he died. I believe that is perfectly biblical, even though he lived for several centuries after that point, and then he died. Therefore the two deaths must not be the same but related to the same event of sin coming into the world and death by sin.

Frank wrote:
Pilgrim, I think you and I agree on this issue. If the bible says a star, then I will assume it meant a star. IOW,"when possible" we should take what is literal as literal and not spin it away. The best example is the big bang theory. Science says it started with matter the size of a pin. Isn’t there something like 100-125 billion galaxies with each containing approximately 100-200 billion stars? Now that must have been one big bang!

Revelation 1:20 KJV
(20)  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So a star could be a twinkling thing in the sky, or it could be an angel of a church, which some say is the overseer or elder. And a golden candlestick could be a golden candlestick or it could be a church headed up by Christ the King.

Phew!

B. McCausland wrote:
Though scripture's meaning is plain, for deeper things of God, he ordained teachers in the church.

You say that scripture's meaning is plain, but for much of the KJV you will not understand without helps. This is because many of the words have changed their meaning over the years, or have actually become obsolete and are never heard ordinarily. This is the reason why the TBS (for example) makes use of a 'word list', either in the Bible itself, or as a separate booklet. Without this, much of the Bible would never be understood, or perhaps even misunderstood.

If you listen to a preacher who is teaching young Christians from the KJV, you will notice that much of his speech will be the explanation of Elizabethan words or grammar, because his hearers would be led astray without such explanations. This is before he even gets to teaching the meaning and practical application.

However, if he was to use a paraphrased edition of the Bible in modern English, he could bypass all those explanations and get on with the business of teaching immediately.

The Quiet Christian wrote:
Indeed, Brother John, and the Enlightenment effort to explain away the miraculous, starting with Creation, has been hugely damaging.
Our problem is that as none of us were there, we don't know if the Lord used a natural phenomenon or a miraculous one for the star. I've heard a variety of opinions on the matter over the years. As Creation carries out the Father's will with intricate precision, He could have worked thru a natural phenomenon. Or He could have sent an Angel to lead the Magi. I lean toward the Angel, myself.

B. McCausland wrote:
Observe the number of 'liberties' taken in the text bordering into interpretation rather than translation:

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent"

Lurker wrote:
So.... did Adam die after he ate of the forbidden fruit as warned by God or did he sleep? Did Adam's body die or was it his soul? Or doesn't it matter?
Just wondering.

1. He died.

2. His right relationship with God (spiritual death).

3. Yes, it matters.

Lurker wrote:
So.... did Adam die after he ate of the forbidden fruit as warned by God or did he sleep? Did Adam's body die or was it his soul? Or doesn't it matter?
Just wondering.

One thing I know, is what God said.

Adriel wrote:
I'm reading a book at the moment called "Triumph over Temptation" a compilation of John Owens work taken from three treatises.
This is where I got the quote to begin with.
"Sin as enmity against God"
It s pretty powerful that the same sin within each one of us is powerful enough to take on God Himself.
We poor creatures have very little chance to contend with sin - Until God provides the Holy Spirit to indwell.
But it demonstrates how evil and powerful sin is in mankind which destroys the heart and mind of mortals and results in this abomination of trans-genderism.
Hope all is well with you down there in Welsh Wales Boyo.

It never fails to amaze me, the spiritual understanding of a brother like John Owen, who had to read and write by candlelight and no central heating to keep his tootsies warm. The output of his spiritual thoughts can only be described as massive.

B. McCausland wrote:
John, dynamic equivalence runs many risks by the adding of words that have no exact correspondent in the original.

______
“Formal equivalence” – a word for word rendering of the original language into whatever language the reader needs, i.e. English. Every effort is made to retain both the word order and sentence structure of the original Hebrew or Greek.

“Functional equivalence” – more of a �thought for thought’ rendering of the original text. Also referred to as �dynamic equivalence’. The goal here is to produce in the reader’s language (i.e. English) the closest equivalent in both meaning and style of the original Hebrew and Greek (and Aramaic).

KJV: “So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.”

NIV: “Then David rested with his fathers and was buried in the City of David.”

NLT: “Then David died and was buried in the City of David.”

As in many other specific verses, the NLT (�functional’) more accurately conveys the meaning in English than the KJV and NIV (both �formal’ equivalence).
____

Adriel wrote:
Rom 7:23 ... bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

It is its [i.e., indwelling sin] work to oppose grace; it is a consequent of its work to oppose our souls, which follows upon what it doth more than what it intends; but its nature and formal design is to oppose God,—God as lawgiver, God as holy, God as the author of the gospel, a way of salvation by grace, and not by works,—this is the direct object of the law of sin." (from; John Owen. 'Temptation')

B. McCausland wrote:
Wondering if Rev 2:2-5 rendered in a sort of paraphrase points to progress or regression?

Frank wrote:
Amen brother! And just me simply add that the above verses have absolutely no connection with works based salvation. I thought I better get that in up front.
Oh and my Florida temperature today has a high of 22.7 Celsius. Jealous.

Here is another fact that so many believers miss, and it is that the risen Lord has designed things so that he is present with his assemblies of people all over the world, actually and spiritually, in other words, by his Spirit. This is why if there is only two or three gathered together in his name, he is there in the midst. It is a wonderful thing, that!

Write this letter to the angel of the church in Ephesus. This is the message from the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand, the one who walks among the seven gold lampstands. Rev 2:1 NLT

I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don’t tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars. You have patiently suffered for me without quitting. But I have this complaint against you. You don’t love me or each other as you did at first! Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first. If you don’t repent, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches. Rev 2:2-5

James Thomas wrote:
The three prevailing understandings all have flaws which have been pointed out by those who defend one of those three in particular. There's plenty of sermons on the subject on SA that defends one of the three by debunking the two remaining ones.
So, to me, that opens the possibility of them all being wrong.

I see myself as very fortunate in one sense, in that I was not brought up in a Christian background, and did not begin to study the scriptures until my conversion in my mid 20's. Thusly, I had to start from scratch, and had no presuppositions to deal with.

Therefore in mine own study of the Bible, I arrived very quickly at what has been my lifelong position concerning the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is currently Lord, Christ, and King over all.

James Thomas wrote:
I know the three prevailing beliefs in eschatological matters cannot all be right but it is possible they can all be wrong.

Gargano wrote:
...
I guess we can ignore all of this, and curse each other's Eschatology, but then that is another apsect of end times being fulfilled, lawlessnes abounds.