When Peter was recounting and defending his ministering to the Cornelius hosehold to the Jews in Jerusalem, he said this:

Ac 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, (IN ACTS 1:4) how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (the gentiles) the like gift (The Spirit) as he did unto us, WHO BELIEVED ON JESUS CHRIST; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Two things here:
1) The receiving of the gift is salvation
2)Receiving the gift is by believing the gospel of Christ

The reaction of the Jews who were with Peter when the Spirit was given to the gentiles:

Ac 10:44 While Peter YET SPAKE THESE WORDS, (He had already spoken the gospel see v39-41)) the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Ac 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also WAS POURED OUT THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.

First, the Spirit of Christ that gives life is poured out on the Jews and then, later, he is poured out on the gentiles, of whom was Cornelius the representative.

But you totally miss the point.

Not only is Acts 10 an account of God's beginning of the evangelizing the gentiles, it is the fulfillment of a prophecy to that end. This will better help you understand the significance of the Cornelius account.

Here is the prophecy:

Mr 1:8 I (John) indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Ac 1:4 And, (Jesus) being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the PROMISE of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. (In Jn 14-16)
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

This is that baptism of ISRAEL by the Spirit and they were immersed by his presence.

He was POURED out on them.

This pouring out happened TWICE in history and both times it fulfilled Johns prophecy. So, not only was it an account of Cornelius' personal salvation but it marked the historical pouring out of the Spirit on the gentiles.

You have not addressed the subject of Acts 10 at all. You are wasting my time. Maybe you have not understood my claim. Let me state it again for you:

The historical narrative of God extending grace to the gentiles in Acts 10 is a pivot point in God's unfolding drama of redemption and exposes the tulip as being false. It begins with an unsaved man doing things that tulip says an unsaved and so called totally depraved man cannot do. It is an historical and a practical account of how God saves men and it agrees in total and confirms the doctrinal utterances of God given in the epistles where he expains salvation and the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The purpose of the account of Cornelius receiving the Holy Ghost and being born again is not to refute calvinism and it's tulip, it just does and any honest reader will admit that it does. The purpose is to explain how, when, and on what basis God includes the gentiles in his predetermined plan of salvation through the gospel of Christ which is his death, burial, and resurrection.

Eph 2:13 But NOW in Christ Jesus ye (gentiles in context) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

There is not a verse in the scriptures that says Cornelius, how did you put it, "was one of God's elect from the foundation of the world" and there is not a verse in the Scriptures that says you are one of God's pre-screened elect. That is just a fact. Your election is on the basis of presumption and you are presuming that Cornelius was also.

"Keep back thy servant also from presumptous sins, let not them have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.", says David in Ps 19.

If the scripture does not say it and you teach it anyway, then you are being presumptous.

But that you might know that in every place the scriptures addresses this issue it is the same as it is here. The Spirit is received through faith.

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The Scriptures in the KJV are written on a 5th grade level but your understanding is on a 1st grade level.

The fact is that the TULIP is devastated by this story and you are like General Custer. You will be the last man standing with hope of only looking foolish, which you are succeeding in doing right well. The only redeeming quality about you now is that you have not attempted to explain how your theology applies to the text. That would be a real hoot.

However, if you think the giving of the Holy Spirit is a two-stage proposition, there must be somewhere in the Scripture it is taught and\or illustrated. Take me there please.

Now I am offended that you are trying to redefine calvinistic doctrines that we have been taught here for 5 tears by men that are much sharper than you. Where will it end?

Reading your stuff you are actually having to redefine the person of God in acts 10, it seems. If I caught your drift right, you think it is a false god that Cornelius was praying to and who sent his angel and told him to send for Peter who would tell him words BY WHICH HE AND HIS HOUSEHOLD would be SAVED.

14 Who shall tell thee WORDS, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved

DJC49 wrote:
Gentlemen, this *JD*/*Casob* character is a flat-out heretic of the Semi-Pelagian kind.

Now, I will attempt to unscramble the egg.
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Cornelius DESIRED the quickening Spirit of God (this "desiring" is not found in the text).
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Maybe not. His prayer might have been general!
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The Cornelius story PROVES faith preceeds regeneration (totally unproved by the text)
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It is totally proven by the text and I have already pointed the proof out.
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God is NOT the "first cause" in a man's salvation
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We are talking about Cornelius in Acts 10 and his being saved.
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"Even as Peter spake Corneilus and house BELIEVED" (the text states no such thing)
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Ac 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus
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God drew men to Jesus ONLY while He was on earth. [see Jn 6:44]
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The incident with Cornelius took place some 10 years after the Holy Spirit was poured out on Israel. There was no preaching to the gentiles by Israel, including Peter, until this event. He thought we were unclean, but God sent a vision to let him know he wanted us saved.

It surprised the Jews who were with Peter that the Holy Ghost was poured out on the gentiles as he was on them in Acts 2. God sent them a sign so they would know it was true and of God.

Heretofore, they had not preached to any but Jews.

Ac 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

The Lone Wolf wrote:
JD,

So JD, do you deny that it was the inner working of the Holy Spirit in your heart to bring you to saving faith and belieing the gospel?

The only reason why Cornelius was able to seek after God in the way that he did was because of the inner working of God's grace to draw him.

If you cannot do it, then fine. Just say you can't and I will not trouble you anymore, but quit trying to take the converstaion down rabbit trails.

So far, all you have done is applied your prejudices to the text. Here is an example.

"The only reason why Cornelius was able to seek after God in the way that he did was because of the inner working of God's grace to draw him."

The Lone Wolf wrote:
Is that the intent of your posting of the account of Cornelius to disprove that God is sovereign in the calling and salvation of sinners? All you are doing is the same as you accuse MurrayA of doing and that is discrediting the Word of God and elevating your secular humanistic philosophy.

My purpose for commenting on it is to let you see that so you can adjust your thinking about God and his wonderful and free salvation. I am your friend. I am here to help you.

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Here is an example of ignoring the text in order to hold to one's theological system. Cornelius was an "unsaved" man at this time. The authority of Scripture attests to it.

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved

Calvinism says a spiritually dead man cannot "do" anything and yet God says Peter will tell you what thou "oughtest to do".

Calvinism says believing the gospel of Jesus Christ is a "work" and God says it is the means to receiving the Holy Ghost, the GIFT OF GOD

But, here is a man in Acts 10 who is unsaved and we have the testimony of God and Peter on it. Yet he is praying to God and God is hearing him and answering his prayer without regenerating him.

You have said a dead man cannot do anything to please God yet we see God himself instructing an unsaved man to send for Peter and he would tell him what HE OUGHTEST TO DO TO BE SAVED! God is testifying against you here, friend!

Faith cometh by hearing, the scriptures say and Peter preached the gospel. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
It was not until after Peter preached the gospel that Cornelius and his house received the Holy Ghost. Believing is what God meant that he must do. No one can be r egenerated, born again, without believing the gospel.

You are trying everything you know to change the subject.

I submit to you that God can do anything he chooses to do as long as it does not violate his character or word. I cannot say with any certainty anything he will choose to do in the Millennial reign that he has not written down in his word. But I can say with certainty that he will accomplish those things he has told me about.

One of the things he has said is that there will be a temple rebuilt in Jerusalem that will be a focal point of the tribulation activities of the Man of Sin and the devil who indwells him.

While that is not the same temple that we find in the Millennium, why is it so hard for you to believe that both will be built? The Jews at this very moment desires it to happen and they have never accepted Christ and Christianity. They still await their Messiah. When the false Messiah comes on the scene, they will accept him. Jn 5:43. But that temple will not survive the great earthquake that will occur at the glorious appearing of that great God and savioue, Jesus Christ.

Djc49,

You would not be convinced away from your religion if God himself came down and wrote two chapters in the bible to illustrate that your religion does not and cannot survive the test of a practical application.

Oh, wait! He did come down and write two chapters that refutes your religion. The Holy Spirit inspired the word of God and he had Luke to write of the conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 and, zippo, you are not convinced.

After telling us dead men cannot do anything but be dead, you now say this:

"Unregenerate men do indeed seek spiritual things, seek salvation, seek "god;" but NOT the God of Scripture!"

Now, I would actually be embarrassed and ashamed to say that the God who sent an angel to answer Cornelius' prayer in Acts 10 was not Jehovah God.

I would be ashamed to suggest that I could not read 5th grade English and comprehend that God sent Peter to preach the gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, so he could believe it, the lone condition, and be saved

LW, you obviously did not check out the link.

I am not going to allow the discussion on Acts 10 and 11 to lead into an argument on dispensational theology. The story of Cornelius unfolds in an historical continuum. That fact remains true no matter what ones theology system is. That story stands in scripture and we are urged to derive our theology from it, not apply our prejudices to it. If we attempt to apply a false theology to it, we will be rebuked by the truth that is in the texts, as you have been.

That would leave us with only two options; 1) We could abandon our false premises and believe the truth or 2) we could launch some red herrons and post links and try to steer the conversation away from the devastating rebuke of the text while not showing how ones theology is confirmed by the story.

Now, let's see, what option have these fellows chosen?

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns-index/calvinism.htm

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And why is everyone suddenly trying to change the subject away from Acts 10 and 11 and points I have made?

Okay. here is the deal.

I agree that I will not mention dispensationalism any more often than I have already mentioned it while I am talking about this story of Cornelius.

How does an unsaved man like Cornelius wind up praying to God and giving alms and having God hear him and God sending his angel to instruct him in what he oughtest to do to be saved, i.e. to receive the Spirit of God? And how does the unsaved Cornelius obey God when we are told that an unsaved man is dead in trespasses and sins and is totally depraved and cannot do these things? And why does God tell him there is something to do to be saved? And why have none of you men attempted to systematically expounded the points of your theology from this text and shown how tulip works in a practical application?

And why have every one of you tried to change the subject?

And how, pray tell, can God draw a corpse and persuade him to come to him?

Who would have thought one would have been debating a point of such great importance who had not read the whole context? Why not learn first?

MurrayA

I take your comments with a grain of salt. So far the only scriptures you have told me you take literally is He 8-10.

But there is a survey about dispensationalism and such. This one is about the love of God so we will not make this about me.

Lurker wrote:
When you dogmatically state that the King of kings and Lord of lords is not sovereign and play around with passages stating that they are proof positive that man makes the first move toward God (in your words "first cause"); it is time for sensible God fearing Christians to shun you until you come back to your senses.

Cornelius was seeking after God. He prayed to Jehovah God and gave alms. This is how the story in Acts 10 begins. He is an unsaved man. The story does not say he is a regenerated man. There is not even a hint of that and DJC49 said his theology made regeneration and the gift of faith so close together that it nearly made the separation a non issue (snicker).

Now, here is a dead man, totally unable, speaking with God and getting instructions from him and obeying him. This is not congruent with the tulip as we have had it explained to us.

Alan H wrote:
JD, PLEASE! I haven't seen anyone of late mentioning any of those five points in this particular discussion.

JD, being a hyper-dispensationalist would probably say that the first disciples were unsaved prior to that Pentecostal experience which they had, and he seems to also think that Cornelius was saved by this particular event; I personally disagree with that position.

If you believe this is not about Cornelius getting saved then I do not know how I can converse with you anymore. It is just a futile exercise.

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

DJC49 wrote:
Cornelius was indeed drawn by God FIRST even though a superficial reading of the Scripture might look as if he is "seeking God" on his own steam.

Now, you say this passage teaches that the Father is drawing Cornelius and I say the floor is open and you have it. Prove your case.

You continually quote this verse.

There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD.

You have never quoted this verse as if it is not scripture.

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

I would ask my calvinist friends to reconsider teaching this doctrine simply because the "quickening" is the born again experience of the believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Surely no one would present a two stage application of the Spirit to our Lord at his resurrection.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

This verse shows that the quickening is salvation and it is by grace and grace is a giving and what is given is God's Holy Spirit who actually does the quickening when we believe.

8 For by grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: