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3/16/09 12:43 PM

charles m

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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that is a great example ! however i was thinking of one which would show that there was a nation or peoples on the earth which had not at some time since pentecost had the gospel - i dont think there are.

3/16/09 11:34 AM

charles m

| UK

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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actual example please ?

3/16/09 10:51 AM

charles m

| UK

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1986
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its not as bad as all that john, i think you will find that the gospel has been preached to all nations unless you can advise me otherwise ? i cant think of any or evenfor that matter languages that the bible has not been translated into, but thats a more specialist subject i would say that there is no land or peoples that since pentecosthas not heard the gospel - but maybe you can give me a nation ? btw what work do you do at home ?

3/16/09 10:13 AM

charles m

| UK

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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the preching to the nations is i believe better understood in the light of the tower of babel. Gods purposes was to remove a one world government and spread peoples over the globe which they had previously refused to do. this being acheived the nations and peoples were set their places paul acts ch17 and limitations so thateach nation could be evangelised seperately, this has nbow been done all nations and continents and peoples have by now at some time since pentecost been given the gospel. all nations and peoples have rejected it or are in the process of doing so

3/16/09 7:13 AM

charles m

| UK

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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hello john, are you on a half day ? its nearly 11 you should already be at work !
well it is a generalisation of course but im a fairly evangelistic calvinist my understanding is that the sheep must be called, they are out there, and the already saved will be the agency of that calling, such of the elect as God gives us honor to speak to is a good work and part of our eternal reward although already ordained none the less eph 2 v10 so my goal is to be counted worthy by God to speak to the as yet unsaved sheep of Jesus elect flock so i study to do this. i make an effort to speak to a minimum of one unsaved person a week this is not ambitious i know but its one to one and it adds up (to 52 a year !). i must confess that often when talking to the brethren about election and evangelism (not meaning you joghn since weve never discussed it) they tell me off for being a fatalist but i know for a fact that they have not undertaken to strive for members of their own family and do not try to reach the lost sheep from one month to the next ! im afraid they are hypocrites tho they seem to congratulate themselves on their evangelistic arminism. God has graciously in the last two years given my wife (of 1 month) and my sons to be true believers.

3/16/09 4:25 AM

charles m

| wales

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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i always think of Acts ch 14 when considering the awaiting regeneration of the elect individual
'and them that were ordained to eternal life believed'
not the other way round, they did not earn their salvation by believeing and then were saved - a la Billy G, they were ordained to salvation and upon hearing the word recognised the voice of the sheperd and came they did believe and were saved its true but the beleived because they were part of the election

isnt it the elect soul rather than the elect physical body ? The elect soul will be placed usualy where he will receive gospel ie a nation where the gospel is common to be heard or born into the family of believing parents you do see exceptions but by and large i would say that historically the reprobate are born into situations and nations which are hostile or indifferent to the gospel and the elect into say 17 century britain or europe and 19 th century america as a genaralisation i know this is poor but you get the idea

3/14/09 6:16 PM

charles m

| wales

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1986
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G Fox
sorry i just googled the text !

3/14/09 2:12 PM

charles m

| wales

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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thx john, djc, yes he is a very godly man and gave me lots of good advice its all about timing i imagine, God has his purposes and wakes people up when its right, but i was very thirsty in those days tho i still listen a lot and look forward to getting in the workshop and listening to teaching i used to listen to peter masters sermons sometimes three times in a row ! his evangelistic sermons are ideal for the newcomer i never understood the link between the old and the new teatament i had no idea of even the basics

yes id like to do away with the sin debt theory really its a bit of a burden it would cheer me up not to bother with it but it was a way of dealing with Jesus atoning for the sins of the world steatement whist retaining the obvious teaching on limited atonement - i could do what most calvinists seem to do and just say that the world does not refer to everyone in it which is reasonable if less rigorous

3/14/09 11:51 AM

charles m

| wales

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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thx candlelit v encouraging, hi john i do have a church thanks and the teaching is good and there is a high level of biblical knowlege in the congregation and there are evn some calvinists there but tulip doesnt get preached much but there is such a famine of preacjing these days i am appreciative of what i have but in this day a man is lucky if he has a church which teaches. i used to go to quite a dead church regularly abd was probably unsaved i had gone for years cos i didnt know any better i certainly didnt know much about the gospel back then even after years but to be truthful i didnt care much either but one day we had a rare visitor and he directed me to the met tab website in london with dr masters and i listened to reformed theology and i was convinced then i went to a three day teaching about the chyurch and they didnt overtly teach election but it was there so i gradually became aquainted with i realised that the bible was self authenticating so then i looked at the science of the world and realised about young earth and the flood etc
DJC yes its one of those things thats got to be worked thru ! perhaps the starting premise is wrong that there isnt a debt but this is what i understand from the sins of the world but only the elect being saved

3/14/09 6:15 AM

charles m

| wales

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i always said God would use the sodomites to judge the 'church' by which i mean the universal church rather than the true church of Jesus, if the church was still true this couldnt happen because there would be enough believers which would fear God more than man and protest this and stop it

3/14/09 5:38 AM

charles m

| wales

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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doesnt the idea of the sinners suffering in hell being a payment of some kind open up the way to the heresy of purgatory ? i think for this raason alone i would have to reject the idea of the sinner in hell being able to offer any restitution or satisfaction by his suffering quite apart from the context of scripture which makes it clear to me that the creature is by himself unable to do anything by himself toward his salvation or atone in anyway for trangresion. in this way im with john wales in that only jesus work of the cross is able to provide satisfaction to the creator.
maybe the debtors in prison suffer because they cant pay their debt and jesus atonement was not for their sin ? the problem with this is that God would be owed eternally and so id have to reject this as well because God is not affected by any source outside of Himself and would not suffer Himself to be denied

3/13/09 8:36 PM

charles m

| wales

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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Nature of the Atonement
that started well but quickly become wordly the idea that the work of the cross was in some way for the improvement of mens position and that even the unregenerate benefitted by 'deleyed judgement' no mention of the main importance to whit the glorification of our God - the man only alludes in vageu terms to it. The glorification of our God is the purpose of everything that ever lived or was ever made that is the starting point - how does this doctrine glorify our God
'And we who are united with Him are untied with Him' well thats wrong for starters or is the writers spelling as bad as mine - surely impossible !
Gods plan of salvation glorifies Himself, thats why He did it this way, even the angels look into these things and ponder, how base individuals are bought to thirst after the things of God the angels know how wicked we are and wonder.
pretty good teaching tho thanks for the link wish i could hear this kind of thing in church

3/13/09 7:39 PM

charles m

| wales

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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yes interesting john, you see my problem, i wouldnt refute the limited atonement position because of this it just seems to me to make the position of the unregenerate even worse if that were possible. however my postulation does as you say require that the work of the cross be beyond measure this question has become an issue for me like the many are called few are chosen which was solved however.

DJC you see the issue - the sinner cannot provide satisfaction yet the debt must be paid nothing must be owed to the creator at the end of all things(or must it ?) is there really a calender in hell ? i was thinking that since God is existing out of time then the unfourtunates in hell might also which is to say that their torment tho eternal would be from moment to moment without the awareness of the passing of time. im interested in the teachings on hell the idea of being in a hopeless and lost eternity seems very real and terrifying

3/13/09 6:16 PM

charles m

| wales

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1986
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ok so you would say that the sinner in hell can pay for his sin and God will be satisfied ? i take the point that the payment would be made twice but that presupposes that the sinner is actualy capable of rendering payment - there is scripture for this possibly in deut 32

Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste

3/13/09 5:06 PM

charles m

| wales

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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mmm id say it was the other way round in my experience by which i mean that universal atonement for them that choose to believe is the more logical or humanistic view of scripture and that limited atonement is contrary the logic of the world that was my case anyway limited atonement didnt make sense to me yet thats what scripture
seemed to say
ive never heard a sermon in a church on limited atonement or election because i think the ministers dont agree with it or are worried about nobody coming to church next week !
I would very much enjoy a good sermon in a church on the subject but i have long since despaired that i ever will - unless i start my own in which case TULIP would probably be a frequent subject !

Pew view
- do you think therefore that the sinner can pay his debt to God in hell ? I only ask because if he cannot then is it still neccessary for recompense to be made to God and if so and if not by the sinner then is it scriptural to conclude that this is what is meant by Jesus taking upon Himself the sin of the world ?

3/13/09 4:37 PM

charles m

| UK

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but they wont look up (unbelief)

Jesus will never turn any man away but they wont come unless the Father calls them (total degeneracy) unless God called some from the race of adam none at all would come of their own volition

3/13/09 4:13 PM

charles m

| UK

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1986
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the creature (in hell) tho they suffer can never repay the creator for their transgresions. Since the creator posseses all things and it is not in the power of the damned soul to make any restitution they have sinned away the day of grace. Moreover God has sustained their lives upon the earth by His direct providence, they are in the debtors prison with no hope of repaying the debt. By divine ordinance they will glorify God before the entire creation by being vessels of Gods wrath, fury and indignation.

so the atonement for the debt of the world can only be done by Jesus since the creature is unable to do it even in hell and yet the debt must be paid. I havent heard anybody else preach on this its just my reading - can someone advise on this ?

3/13/09 3:27 PM

charles m

| UK

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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i dont speak any welsh but lots of people here do i listened to SA a lot for hours every day - so much better than the radio! which i havent listened to at all in my workshop in two years i started with johnathan edwards mainly paris reidead, tozer, ive always enjoyed don fortner, i listened to peter masters a lot at the metropolitan tabernacle in london they post all their sermons, i always get fred phelps sermons WBC on monday lots of people dont seem to like jhim but i do he is very knowlegable he is 80 now but been preaching since 16
i also listened a lot to john macarthur his sermons are free now, he says if you are a calvinist you should be a premillenialist i thought yes of course tho it seems he was joking !
i dont know much more than the basics its been a good two years tho i havent read the bible thru yet but nearly there only isiah left to go. maybe ill change my mind about some doctrines but i dont think so, jim nebraska has a point most people i talk to dont really like to talk about doctrine (or creation) they say it didvides its never bothered me. some folk say you should read not just listen - i read to! but Paul is right faith comes by hearing, people listened to Jesus its good listening when you work because your hands are busy and the mind is receptive

3/13/09 1:56 PM

charles m

| UK

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Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
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thanks john you are very generous, the brethren say i have made good progress largely as a result of resources like sermon audio as i work alone so i can listen all day ! election the hardest thing in scripture for me to understand (so far) as it ran contrary to my own ideas of 'natural justice' for want of a better phrase it didnt line up with everything id been led to understand about 'christianity' but once i had worked thru it whole new araes of understanding came with it. as well as disposing of the pseudo gospel id had. it was as important to me as learning about the flood evidences which transformed my attitude to the bible. i realised that my attitude to election was based upon my own hypocrisy (btw in talking about myself i mean no oblique reference to your good self)if i had been the lone survivor of some temporal calamity in which the others had perished i knew i would not be questioning the fact, this was the start of progress in recognising the concept of sovreignty.
the occasion of the death of someone led me to understand the many are chosen passage which was amystery before. i can pm you on that if you like but cant really relate it here (i live on anglesey btw)
i read this 1 cor 3 v 17 the next day in my routine morning bible reading

3/13/09 5:38 AM

charles m

| UK

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Survey:
Which issue do you think most confronts the Church...

1986
comments

nearly john except for the last bit

''Even briefer: Many (sinners) are called (in general) but few are chosen (relatively).''

many hear the call of the gospel, many are called and many respond in some way, some even go to church go to alpha courses etc hang out with christians and even call themselves christians ive met some but they are not the chosen, they have not been given to believe with their hearts and to fear God and ive seen them turn their back on the gospel or be filled with the doctrine of devils and ive even seen God kill them shortly afterwards - does that sound cruel ? that some men would appear to us to earnestly seek but not be allowed to enter ? It can only be understood in the light of sovreignty. what appears earnest to us may not be the case and in any case should the elect be in the first place insincere or test Gods patience we are still the elect and will be brought forth out of Egypt so that sovreignty might stand - mens wisdom and ways have no place in this scheme.
it sounds hard but really it is wise, God is to be glorified in all things thats the law of the universe

i struggled with election for quite a while but once i understood it it was the only theology that i could consistently apply to all situations and get a solution.

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