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USER COMMENTS BY ICON O'CLAST |
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Page 1 | Page 4 · Found: 202 user comments posted recently. |
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4/20/08 10:12 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Casob wrote: All you people will have the opportunity to explain to God one day when he judges you why you did not believe that God made the first step in salvation immediately after the first sin by providing a substitute, the innocent for the guilty. Casob, you give strong warning but weak explanation of your argument. None of us disagree with the texts you quoted but how do they pertain to the discussion at hand?You err in several ways; God did not take the first step, and He did not take the first step immediately after the first sin. You speak as though God was somewhat taken aback by sin and then had to act to remove it. God acted before there was any sin, before there was any creation. The Triune God determined that sin would come into the world and that the Son would redeem His people from that sin. God does not take the first step, He takes all the steps. Did you not read my previous posts about sin and how we are enslaved to it? What steps can you take outside of the prison of your sin unless God changes you first? What steps could Lazarus take out of the tomb without the mighty power of God's resurrection? By the way, Hebrews clearly says Abel offered by faith, blood had nothing to do with it. |
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4/20/08 9:13 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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For whom did Christ die? He said that He came to do God's will. So, what was God's will? If it was to save every individual person then Christ failed to do the will of the Father. If Christ came to be a propitiation for every person, then He failed to shield many from the wrath of God.The primacy of man is the ultimate vice. Adam sought to dethrone God and to make himself captain of his own ship. The result of this was death, as God had promised. This death came upon all who were in Adam. This "all" literally means every person born since. No one can free themselves from this death any more than they could resurrect themselves after they died. When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb Lazarus came. But if Christ had not first raised him from the dead he would have remained in the tomb, unable to respond, unable to even hear the call. Natural man's condition is the same. The call goes out, but the response cannot come until life is first given. To say that natural man can come to Christ without first being resurrected from death is to say that Lazarus could have responded to Jesus without first being made alive. What came first, the repsonse or the resurrection? The Arminian says the response. The Bible says the resurrection. Jesus said, "Unless a man is born again.." |
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4/20/08 8:41 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Man does have a free will. He is free to choose whatever he desires. But because our nature is sinful, what we desire to do is sinful. We are in bondage to sin, slaves of sin. As creatures we are free to be sinful or to be righteous. But as sinners we will always freely choose sin. As creatures we are free, but as sinners we are slaves.Sinners have no desire to glorify God. So in a moral sense, there can be no freedom until the Spirit creates it. So salvation cannot be the result of a cooperative effort between God and the sinner, it can only result from the unilateral act of God alone. Until God changes the sinner's heart, the sinner does not want true salvation. Most if not all Christians believe that God acts according to His will and that He controls all things. But they baulk at the thought that God controls their free will. To be a slave to sin is what it really means. You are bound and cannot free yourself. You are free to act, but you are not free to leave the prison of your sin. The key to the jail of your sin is not in your pocket. When God converts you, you are no longer a slave to sin but you are now a slave to Christ. You are now His bondservant. To see sin as anything other than total bondage is to miss what the Bible clearly teaches about it. |
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4/20/08 7:29 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Faith is obedience and submission to God. Israel rebelled and spent 40 years in the wilderness. The Bible says they could not enter in because of unbelief - they had no faith. Their faithlesness was manifest in their rebellion. True faith is more than trust. It is total commitment, leaving one thing totally and clinging to something else totally. It begins with denying self, abandoning your own self like you would a sinking ship. And it means clinging to Christ with both arms, the way you would leave a ship and enter a lifeboat. Israel was taken out of Egypt, but they never left it in their hearts and always wanted to go back. Likewise our conversion must be a total abandonment of the world and our old life. We die from one life and live to another. So faith is found not just accepting in your mind, or believing in your heart but in living in your life. That is why people are judged according to their fruit. What they produce, Jesus said, is produced from their heart. Our old heart could not produce any fruit for it was made out of stone. But God puts in you a heart of flesh and if that has truly happened to you it must produce good fruit. Heb 11 gives a great explanation and examples of faith. The question is, where does this faith come from??? |
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4/20/08 7:21 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Daddy wrote: This is coming from someone who cannot find one verse that states the idea that God elects only a select few to go to heaven and the rest go to hell. Maybe he thinks that his logical deductions from perverted interpretations has equal authority as the Scriptures themselves. I have repeatedly given copious quantities of Scripture in the past and you have not answered them yet, so why should I waste my time and give you more? Go back through the posts and check my texts. Better still, answer Paul's challenges in Romans 9. Convince me that dead in sin does not really mean dead in sin. Show me that Jesus lied when He said, several times, no one can come to Him unless God allows it. Prove to me that Paul was out of line to say things like, "God from the beginning chose you for salvation". Your god is a god of chance, a god who wills all men to be saved but can't perform. In your mind man is ultimate and you prove it because you answer every Scriptural challenge thrown at you with dribble. |
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4/20/08 7:12 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Daddy wrote: Well he could've simply gone to the Scriptures and gotten his answer. But that's too easy.This is quite clear for those that do not believe that "any" and "all" mean "elect," but rather believe that God means what he states. You've been spending time in the woodshed again, haven't you? I am not sure what you do there, but I am sure it is not good for you. You are starting to babble again.Your own text answers its own question. God is longsuffering to who? To us! Who is us? Every one in the world? No! Us means those who are in Christ. Peter is re-affirming what Jesus said, "He who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out." It is not the Father's will that we (us) should perish. Therefore He is longsuffering to us, not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us should have eternal life. If it is really true, that God really wants that "us" to be every single individual, that He really truly with all His hear and might wants every single one to come to repentance, then there are only two possibilities. Either everyone will come to repentance and God is Almighty, or they don't and He is not. Obviously God is Almighty, so the question is answered. But doesn't the Bible say God GRANTS repentance??? |
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4/20/08 7:19 AM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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The love of God is like the presence of God. He is everywhere present (Ps139) yet there is special way He is present with His people. The Spirit of God is present in all life, because He is the source of all life. But He is present in a saving way only with those He regenerates, justifies and sanctifies. Likewise these is what we call Common Grace; undeserving people receiving constant blessings from God. God reveals Himself to every human being (Rom 1) but only to His people does He reveal Himself in a saving way. Our assurance of salvation lies in God's Sovereignty and in Him alone. As I said before, Rom 8:28 stands or falls on the truth of vs 29,30. If one iota of our salvation depended on us, we would have no assurance at all. But because God is the Author, the originator, the ultimate source, and the Finisher,we have total assurance. I ask you - if you can resist God's will, who is ultimate? If you can stay God's hand, who has the power? If God's saving power was dependent on your choice, or on anything else, He could not declare Himself the Almighty One who works ALL things according to His purpose. If one molecule in the universe was not in God's total control, chaos would be the result. For want of one nail the horse then the rider then the battle then the war was lost. |
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4/20/08 7:12 AM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Casob you have a low and unbiblical view of sin. The Bible clearly describes the natural man, and it contradicts your opinions. I understand your frustration that it seems unjust, but Paul systematically answers all your objections in Rom 9. You cannot deny that the Bible declares us dead in sin. If this dead is nor really dead, how do we know Jesus was really dead? We are told that by nature we hate God; we are His enemy; we cannot discern spiritual things; we are blind, deaf and numb to the truth. Jesus said that our of our heart comes the issues of the mouth and our heart, says God, is desperately wicked. Jesus was categorical and said it twice, unless you are born again FIRST, you cannot see, let alone enter, the kingdom. God controls all things, even our free choices. You see that in Joseph, in Samson, in Job, in the cross. Wicked men act out of their own free will, but even those actions are according to God's predetermined purpose. God's revealed was broken by those who crucified Christ, but they fulfilled God's decretive will. Peter says this clearly in Acts 2. Satan was the one who hit Job so hard, but Job knew it was of God. Eli's sons did not listen to their father, because God had determined He was going to kill them. The Bible is full of these things. |
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4/20/08 2:39 AM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Thank you Bedhead. I am also appalled at the prevalence of Arminiasm despite the overwhelming Scriptural evidence to the contrary. It is not only human pride, it is also an incorrect understanding of sin and, more importantly, a wrong view of God. Theology must begin with God. His nature and attributes of Omnipotence and absolute sovereignty are the bedrock on which all else must be built. I always maintain that the hallmark of all theology must be the mathematical equation 100% Divine + 100 human % = 100%. Christ is 100% God and 100% man. The two add up to 100%. The Scriptures is of Divine authorship for 100% and human authorship 100%, yet there is only 1 Bible, a seamless product. Likewise salvation is Divine for 100%. God is the Author and Finisher. Man can contribute nothing. But man is 100% responsible. We are commanded to repent, to have faith, to obey God and trust Christ. But unless God grants us repentance and faith, and opens our eyes so we see our need of Christ, we are not able. But our inability does not detract from our responsibility. And if you begin with a wrong view of sin and its effects, and a wrong view of God and His nature, you can never arrive at a proper understanding of salvation. The clear teaching of Scripture is being ignored by many at their peril. |
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4/19/08 11:21 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Whosoever - You made two statements earlier, or rather, quoted two texts and used them illegitimately. 1 - Jesus did NOT say, "Whosoever comes to Me I will in no wise cast out." He said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, AND...." You deliberately left out the first part because it does not fit your freewill theology. 2 - The text about Jesus knocking in Revelation has nothing to do with evangelism, salvation or calling sinners. The text is talking to the church. Jesus is talking to the church, a body of believers, because they have started to shut Him out. To use that text as so many do to give a picture of Jesus knocking on hearts pleading to be let in is a gross misuse of Scripture. How do people come to be saved? For everyone it is different from a human perspective. Some from early childhood, others after years of outward rebellion, yet others again after going to church for years yet never being truly converted. But for everyone there is a sameness - the Spirit of God regenerates you, He gives you eyes to see. You see yourself as God sees you for the first time, and you feel like Isaiah - undone. Then you cry out for a Saviour because you know you can't save yourself. But to say it begins with you and not with God is patently false and unbiblical. |
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4/19/08 12:48 AM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Peanut you muddy the waters then talk about clarification. There is none that seeks after God, no, not one! You want to argue with that? I gave a long list of texts which clearly describe man's condition. You want to argue with those texts? If the Bible says we are dead in sin, and you say dead does not really mean dead, then when it says Lazarus was dead maybe he was only stunned. If it says Jesus was dead, maybe He was only in a coma. God told Adam, you will die.Did he? Paul says that the natural man cannot discern spiritual things, is that really true? Jesus said that before regeneration we cannot even see, let alone enter, the kingdom. Was He being literal, or was He exagerating to make a point? Total depravity does not mean that man is as sinful as he can possibly be. But it does mean that he is incapable of doing good, of choosing good. By nature we are enemies of God, we resent Him. We are like the nations in Psalm 2, raging against God and refusing to acknowledge His complete sovereignty in all things, including our life. If there is anything in man that is worthy of salvation then grace becomes meaningless. If there is still something in us that is deserving of God's mercy, grace ceases to exist. That is the gospel my friend, anything else is an accursed lie! |
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4/19/08 12:41 AM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Woodshed and others think that faith is not a work, but is still something that they contribute to their salvation. I ask you, where does your faith come from? Who gave it to you? Did you produce it yourself? What is the source behind it? Again, what do you have, including your faith, that you did not receive? You think that God looks for those who have faith and then saves them? Do you believe that there are people who God really wills to save with all His might, but He cannot because they do not have faith? Is it then true, that God gives us salvation in exchange for our faith? But from where does your conviction of sin come? Do you produce that also? Is it in your mind or in your heart, academic or emotional? Again, what is the source of your knowledge of sin? If the Bible says that God is Almighty, does as He pleases, shows mercy to whom He wills and hardens who He wills, that He does all things according to the purpose of His will - if this is true - from whence comes your power to resist God? Who has resisted His will, you? When you talk to others about Jesus do you appeal to their intellect or their emotion? What is it that convinces them, reason? Persuasion? Does God only come into it after they 'accept Jesus'? Are my questions smokescreens or deserving of an answer? |
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4/19/08 12:33 AM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Mat11:27, Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son and he to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Lk10:22, No one knows who the Son is but the Father and who the Father is but the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Jhn6:37, All that the Father gives Me will come to Me. John15:16, You did not choose Me but I chose you. Acts11:18, Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life Acts13:48, As many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Rom9, So it si not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy; therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens; Does not the potter have power over the clay? Phil1:29, For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake. IThes5:9, For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. IIThes2:13, God from the beginning chose you for salvation. IITim1:9, Who saved us and called us, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was to us in Jesus Christ before time began. My friends - is clearer language possible? How many times and in how many ways must the truth be stated in the Word for you to believe and bow before it? I wonder. |
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4/18/08 8:33 AM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Casob gives a list of texts about faith which do not have any reference to the discussion at hand. He then claims that the Bible nowhere states that faith is the gift of God when Ephesians makes that abundantly clear. God asks you, what do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you glory (boast) as if you did not receive it? Casob thinks that God saves him because he has faith. His faith in exchange for God's salvation, so to speak. But Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing. And as someone once so quaintly put it, that nothing is not a little something. Casob, you have not yet understood grace. Grace does not just mean you don't deserve God's mercy, it means you deserve the opposite. But you think you somehow deserve it, because you have faith. Paul says clearly, that faith is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, it is not of works, lest anyone should boast. I hate to say this Casob, but you are boasting. Your believe that your faith is your own achievement. God says clearly NO - He gives it to whomever He pleases. All of your salvation is of God and from God, He is the Author and Finisher. You are a vessel which He created and He determined whether His vessels receive mercy or not, whether they are for honour or dishounour. |
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4/17/08 11:21 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Jesus said, "NO ONE can come to Me, UNLESS it has been granted to him by My Father." He told Nicodemus, "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Paul explains it more fully in Ephesians. "And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins. But God, even when were were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ. For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast." Who would turn around and call Christ a liar? No one can come, except those who make a decision. You must see the kingdom of God before you can be born again. Who would call Paul a liar and say that we were not really dead at all? Sinners, yes, but still able to do some spiritual good and make a decision for Jesus? Who would dare to boast and say that we produce our own faith, that it is not a gift from God? Who would dare twist the clear teaching of Scripture which tells us that we are partly our own workmanship? If it is not all of God and from God, if it depends on sinful man in any way, shape or form, then we have no confidence whatsoever. If we in any way deserve this salvation, in any way are able to produce anything towards it, then there is no such thing as grace. |
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4/17/08 10:32 PM |
Icon O'Clast | | Oz | | | |
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Jesus took on the form of man, and did not grasp onto the prerogatives of Godhead. Why? He had to live the life we could not live. He had to live a life of perfect submission and obedience. Thus, as a man, He was in all ways tempted, but sin was not a temptation to Him. He prayed, just like a Man. He fulfilled the whole law, all on our behalf. In Him we have perfect faith, perfect obedience, perfect submission. And His perfect death, the death we could not die, was on our behalf, for us. Before the world was made, the Triune God covenanted together to not only create, but also to redeem. We are not saved because of our faith, but because of the faith of Jesus Christ (Gal3:16). He alone had that perfect faith, ours is imperfect at best. We would not even have faith unless God gave it to us. He determines who has faith - it is His gift. If you think your faith is produced by yourself, then your hope of salvation rests on what you produce, not on what Christ produced for you. Casob - answer my questions about sin, and about Romans 8. Then answer me this question; what is your confidence of eternal life? On what do you base your hope for eternal life? Your faith? Your decision for Christ? Your faithfulness to God? What do you have that you did not receive? |
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