James Thomas wrote: I'm not sure your following my point. So let me rephrase for clarity. My point is that "the second time" is referring to the Lord setting His hand... 1ST Time was in Egypt. Ex 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: Second time was in Egypt/Assyria etc. to deliver the remnant. Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time.... Does that make sense?
You are saying the first time God brought Israel out was in Egypt and the second time was in Egypt and Assyria.
James Thomas wrote: I've been pondering this and I believe I see our disconnect in all this J4J. Lets take a look again at these two verses which I've abbreviated to demonstrate a point. Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time... Zech 10:10 I will bring them **again**also out of the land of Egypt**, and gather them out of Assyria... Is it possible that the "second time" reference and the "again" refers to simply the Lord setting His hand yet a second time in the land of Egypt to bring them out yet again? I believe it is. If you don't see it to be plausible, what would be your reasoning?
Because they were scattered abroad, not just in Egypt. So regathering some out of Egypt would be different than all of them exodusing out of Egypt together.
Iâ€™m concerned with the remnant. It would appear Israel is referred to that only after they were driven out of the Promised Land and scattered.
â€śSo the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria.â€ť â€â€2 Chroniclesâ€¬ â€30:6â€¬
So of the two times a remnant is gathered, it is in belief first and then in unbelief the second time. Israel wasnâ€™t ever called a remnant in Egypt.
1) â€śHe that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.â€ť â€â€Markâ€¬ â€16:16â€¬
We must believe to be saved. Belief doesnâ€™t warrant or earn salvation. Jesus alone completed the work and God graciously gives it to us when we believe. God has commanded us to believe, we must obey Him or face the consequences.
2) Sure, dead people canâ€™t believe. However, they cannot sin either. Therefore, everyone would be innocent if that was the case, which it is not. Death is a term to explain our separation from God. We are dead to Him.
3) God chose those who are in Christ to be holy and blameless before Him. Only believers are in Christ! This says nothing about God making people believe.
4) We know God will take care of those who love Him because of how He treated the Jews in the past who believed in Him.
â€śGod hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€11:2â€¬
5) It says in Peter when people become elect. Itâ€™s when they are sanctified by the Holy Spirit and not before. Also, Titus says it is the faith of the elect. Those selected by God for salvation have faith.
James Thomas wrote: There's a few problems with your idea that the nation was created after Egypt, J4J. First off, where in Scripture can you say that narrative is written?
Secondly, Those that were delivered from Egypt were God's people before going into to Egypt. Here is one narrative which very specifically says that Israel came into Egypt so therefore they were a people(nation) before entering.
Psalm 105:23 **Israel also came into Egypt**; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham. 24And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. 25He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants. 26He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen.
Iâ€™ll have to do more research as to when they first became a official nation. It seems to me they needed their own land and borders with their own laws and rulers to be considered a nation. Also, the tribe of Israel was in Egypt, so they werenâ€™t scattered at that time. God didnâ€™t regather them after they were dispersed at that time, He brought them out of Egypt and only Egypt. So after a dispersion, I would still think God regathered them after the Babylonian exile and in our times. Letâ€™s say you are right though, now what?
I guess you donâ€™t mind! Nobody is saying it isnâ€™t Godâ€™s choice, but you are leaving out peopleâ€™s responsibility to believe. Many are called, but few are actually chosen because they will not believe.
Wait a sec, are you not concerned that what you quote men saying is not found in scripture? Just another thing not taught in scripture! There isnâ€™t a general call and an effectual call. How can you say that only some people are called when the verse you give says many are called and few of them are chosen? Remember one thing, TULIP isnâ€™t found in scripture.
James Thomas wrote: Would you want to share from Scripture how you arrived at what your thinking? And yes....it would matter. If not. That's fine too.
When God pulled Israel out of Egypt, He created the nation then. It wasnâ€™t a regathering. Then after they were conquered and dispersed, God brought back a remnant during the time of Nehemiah. That was their first regathering. The first regathering was of believing Jews and the second regathering was prophesied to be of unbelievers, for the Lordâ€™s name sake. As a sign to Gentiles that He is God. Then a remnant of Jews will be saved as all Israel believes and Jesus returns. Otherwise, what do you consider the regathering of Israel after the Babylonian Excile?
James Thomas wrote: Great. Glad you are. Establishing when will be the next stop. Can we now say we have established that the first was indeed Egypt and the second is being spoken of in the narrative of Deut. 29-30 as well as Isa. 11:11?
We can establish that is what you believe. Iâ€™m kind of thinking the first regathering was after the Babylonian exile, but I donâ€™t know if it really matters for what you are wanting to show me.
James Thomas wrote: Hey J4J, I'm considering your question, I can't find any other examples other than this one and its clearly Egypt. Ex 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: I did take a look to see what Matthew Henry Had to say and he agrees. Here is his short quote on Isaiah 11:11. This is said to be a recovery of them the second time (v. 11), such an instance of the power and goodness of God, and such a reviving to them, as their first deliverance out of Egypt was. Does that help?
Okay, I follow you. Youâ€™re saying the first regathering is from Egypt and the second one is future?
Does it not bother you that it doesnâ€™t say effectual calling? It also doesnâ€™t show that others are not called. Just looking back at believers, you know they were called.
James Thomas wrote: J4J, First off I want to thank you for your patience. Secondly I appreciate you taking time to read through the context and the convo. Unfortunately, I'm out of time to discuss anymore this evening but hopefully I will be able to further comment tomorrow. If we can agree on Isaiah 11 and work through your question, that will be where the rubber prayerfully hits the road on all this. Have a great night.
Youâ€™re killing me! Alright, have a good night and I hope you are blessed at church tomorrow!
James Thomas wrote: Great! We agree. Now, since we are in agreement on what the context and timeline of which Deut. 30:6 is spoken, permit me to share with you where that same exact prophecy of the Lord recovering the remnant a second time is spoken of elsewhere. Isa 11:11 the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. Are we still in agreement?
God will recover the remnant of His people a second time. I question whether Egypt would have been considered the first time or when they were brought out of Babylon.
James Thomas wrote: Patience young grasshopper. You are correct....it was the promised land God had cast them out of. So would agree then that what we are reading about is when the Lord shall set his hand a second time to recover the remnant of his people as the first(Egyptian captivity) is spoken as a past event?
James Thomas wrote: Okay J4....if you say its before entering the promise land, then what land did God cast them out of after the Egyptian captivity? Deut 29:25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: 27And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: 28And the LORD **rooted them out of their land**in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.
God cast them out of the Promise Land, correct? Iâ€™m curious what this has to do with Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, or Irresistible Grace. Please enlighten me!
James Thomas wrote: Okay, lets take your suggestion you made earlier and consider the context....but lets expand that to involve more help on understanding the picture. Deut. 29 is the beginning of the narrative which involves Deut 30:1-3....and we see that narrative speaks of the Egyptian captivity which God took them out of right? So would you agree that as being a past event in the narrative? I'm going somewhere with this so bare with me if your up for it. If not that's fine too.
Yes, after the Exodus and before entering the Promised Land.
Will you show me where that is in this narrative, which if I'm not mistaken, is during the same timeline as what is spoken in the context of Deut. 30:6?
Ezekiel 36 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:
Correct on all of those previous verses.
â€śAnd it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.â€ť â€â€Deuteronomyâ€¬ â€30:1-3â€¬
So God says if they turn and obey, He will then do such and such. They must obey first. This isnâ€™t about salvation though, it is about returning to the land.
Ezekiel 36 hasnâ€™t happened yet. Iâ€™m of the impression that all Israel will one day be saved and this verse is talking about that time.
Truth is but tripe to people who would rather believe in their religion than in Godâ€™s word. Itâ€™s the old refrain by Satan, â€śHas God said?â€ť They have no fear of adding to Godâ€™s word here and subtracting from it there. A little manipulation goes a long way! Everyone only means some and the whole world means a very limited select few. Faith isnâ€™t obedience, itâ€™s self conscious awareness. A bunch of demon dribble if you ask me!