DJC49 wrote:
Concerning Cornelius and what he KNEW about The Messiah, we know with certainty only the following:

John UK wrote:
.. Man, this is such an important issue, and just goes to show why missions are being downgraded, and missioners are being sidelined.
I hope all the extremists listen to this message, and give it some thought, instead of casting it off because it upsets their set-in-concrete theology.

DJC49 wrote:
This debate revolving around Cornelius has brought to the fore a VERY important question which MUST be resolved: "Can one be saved WITHOUT having conscious knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ?"
... I earnestly beg, plead, implore, pray and entreat ALL to listen etc.

I will definitely listen.

Scholium wrote:
..so also this grace of regeneration does not treat men as senseless stocks and blocks, nor take away their will and its properties, neither does violence thereto; but spiritually quickens, heals, corrects, and at the same time sweetly and powerfully bends it; that where carnal rebellion and resistance formerly prevailed, a ready and sincere spiritual obedience begins to reign; in which the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consist.."

Michael Hranek wrote:
CU
Exactly...
UNLESS Something we might prayerfully lay before the Lord, has someone other than God given to some zealous theologians this "theology" of regeneration (new birth, salvation) before and apart from repentance and faith? and if so, Why?

Their's is a zeal, but without knowledge.

If they would meditate on the Scriptures and not bury their heads in their systematic theologies, they may actually learn something. True theologians derive matter directly from God's word - these sad cases bring their theology and impose it upon God's word. The sadness is that they think that as long as they can quote a favourite author who also comes to the same conclusion by the same method then they are justified in their interpretation! What kind of logic is that?

Michael Hranek wrote:
CU
Hmmm???
Are you saying we shouldn't throw away in favor of a higly esteemed theology (by some) just yet the verses that say:
.."And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
...."So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

What would be the point of passages like the one you cited if one is already saved before even hearing the message?

The Reformation rediscovery, which one would have thought these men would have really valued, was that Salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH. No faith no salvation. But as you rightly pointed out how can faith exist before the message is heard? And how can the message be heard unless there is a messenger sent?

Why was Peter sent for? Hear what Peter said- "..And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14**Who shall tell thee words, WHEREBY thou and all thy house SHALL BE SAVED** etc."

John Calvin wrote:
..whilst that they feign that the works of Cornelius were acceptable to God before he was illuminate by faith. And we need not to fet [seek] a proof far to refute their ignorance; for he could obtain nothing by prayer unless faith went before, which only openeth the gate for us to pray etc."

What about the Publican who prayed "God be merciful to me a sinner"? Was he justified before or after his prayer? If you say he was justified before then you contradict the passage, if you say he was justified after his prayer then you have to resolve the problem that God heard him when he was still an unjustifed sinner!!

John UK wrote:
You know, CU
Some of the Bible is very hard for me to understand, but some parts are really quite simple, even for a turnip.
Like these verses:
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
(Acts 11:14-16 KJV)
It was like a mini Pentecost, with so many folks getting saved all at once. Wouldn't we just love to see that in our day?

Did you read DJC49's masterly treatment of the Acts 10 passage in his last 2 posts of yesterday and the first of today? Do read them if you have not read them.

Oh how I would love to see an awakening! I have read many accounts and they seem so far from our reality but I have to keep reminding myself that even Whitfield's day, before the revival, was dark - very dark!

John UK wrote:
And another thing.
If Cornelius was already justified by God, how come he never said to the angel: "But I thought I was already saved?"
(Acts 11:13 KJV)
And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
(Acts 11:14 KJV)
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Come on Cornelius. They reckon you were already regenerate. How come you're not arguing with the angel, or at the very least puzzled about why you need to be saved all over again. Ah, but of course, you were not yet saved, nor were you born again, nor did you have the Spirit indwelling you, nor had you yet believed on Christ, even though you, as a Roman centurion, would have heard all about him, living as you were in the Roman HQ.
And another thing, what applies to Cornelius applies to his whole household. Were they ALL indwelt by the Person of the Holy Ghost, born again, saved etc.?

They think they have "the mind of Christ" and so their thinking is superior to the plain declarations of the Bible

huh wrote:
No! You are!

huh wrote:
What they are doing is called salvation by works!

Huh wrote:

Moslem’s are devout to Allah, fear Allah, give alms in the name of Allah and pray to Allah, it is not to THE TRUE GOD OF THE BIBLE!

They pray, they give generously to charity, the are devout, they fear God etc.

DJC49 wrote:
IMHO, there needs to be a clearer understanding of Total Depravity. TD certainly does NOT mean that an unregenerate man can't give alms -- it's clear that he can. It doesn't mean that he can't pray -- it's clear that billions do. It doesn't mean that he can't be devout nor fear God etc"

I have to say that your last few postings have made me think differently of you. Your understanding of TD is spot on, but you know - that is not how most calvinists think! Most calvinists think like Joe T that it means that man is incapable of doing anything morally good.

I understand what you mean by "self-referential" but the natural man can also perform amazing acts of true self denial/self sacrifice out genuine love! The "Imago dei" is not totally obliterated as some want to try and make out.

Do you have children? If so, what do you teach them about prayer? Do you tell them not to bother because their native depravity would make their prayers stink in God's nostrils?

Do you find any account of Christ rejecting someone who called to him. Did he ever tell anyone to go away because of their native depravity. Have you never read "..This man receiveth sinners.."?. And guess what he welcomes little sinners too -- "..Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven..."

Don't confuse depravity with God's delight to hear someone come to him in prayer!
------------------
A question for you theologians out there. I love working with Children and teaching them the gospel. They can really relate to Gospel themes -for example they are always being told off, and for them to learn that actually God is none too pleased with adults is quite funny.

But here is my question - many children respond quite positively and some for many years before turning their backs on the things of God. How do you account for this given their native depravity?

Mike wrote:
Never mind researching new religions. Why not consider the Way more rightly instead? Consider again Acts 11:13-15, which by your free will you continue to stumble over, as a man stumbles over a rock trying to escape the fire of truth.

RNR

Fearing God is definitely not enough!

Researching new religions wrote:
..I see Mister Understanding has already adopted you. ...

What can I say? I like biblicists!

DJC49 wrote:
In the KJV, it states in Acts 10:22 that " ... Cornelius the centurion ... WAS WARNED from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee."
Now what do you suppose this "WAS WARNED" is all about? Was Cornelius in some sort of danger if he did not heed the command of the angel sent from God?
Perhaps the hearing of the Gospel from Peter was extremely important -- if not absolutely essential -- in the salvation of Cornelius?
If, according to some here, Cornelius was already regenerate and saved, what was the big deal about his hearing some message from Peter that he didn't really need to hear? IOW, why should Cornelius be so "warned?"
Maybe the whole thrust and focal point of Acts chapter 10 is NOT Cornelius and his conversion, but rather Peter. Perhaps God used Cornelius as a minor character in the greater drama of Peter (and the early church) having to come to grips with gentiles being accepted and welcomed into the Kingdom. etc

My prayers are indeed being answered before my very eyes.

DJC49 wrote:
(continued from previous post)
IMHO, God held the prayers and alms of Cornelius as a memorial before Him because he was one of God's elect -- predestined unto salvation before the foundation of the world. We do not know of Cornelius's elect status by anything we read about him prior to Acts 10:44, rather, we know this only by reading that he was indeed saved in due time. To say that Cornelius was regenerate because of (or in light of) the fact that he did those things as mentioned in Acts 10:2 is presumptuous. You just can NOT prove or disprove his regeneration prior to Acts 10:44. Period.
On the other hand, there is tremendous evidence that Cornelius was indeed regenerate AT Acts 10:44 due to the mention of the Holy Ghost at the preaching of the word -- the gospel of Jesus.
So to your question, *RNR*, "Did Cornelius have grace, faith and the indwelling Spirit?" the answer would be: "There's no way to definitively tell UNTIL Acts 10:44. Prior to that, it would be all conjecture via some fancy Scripture bending and text torturing -- and a healthy portion of eisegesis to boot."

DJC49 wrote:
Yet another slam against Calvin(ism) by the one who claims to hold to all 5 points (of Calvinism), and is a "Particular Baptist."
Tell me this guy isn't disingenuous!

Hey DJ, I'm real happy that you are here to single me out to persecute. You're not the first and you will not be the last.

I'll pray for you because that is what the Lord commands. I do hope that the Lord will take your bitter heart from you and grant you a heart of flesh so that you will be made humble and a whole bible man.

In the meanwhile just believe what Acts 10 tells you about Cornelius - HE WAS UNSAVED until Peter came preaching peace by Jesus Christ! That is the way you must come too to obtain peace.

BTW I hold to the Doctrines of Grace. I believe that John UK holds to the same. You may refer to them as the 5 points of Calvinism, but I refuse to refer to them in that way, because I am not a Frenchie, and as you are beginning to find out I do not buy into your understanding of the DOG. You are a text book 5 pointer. I am a Biblical 5 pointer. Massive difference.

Mike wrote:
Therefore Peter tells the words whereby Cornelius and all his house shall be saved, NOT for the purpose that whereby these words Cornelius and all his house shall be saved, but to inform him that Jesus is the Messiah. What version is that in, anyway?

John UK wrote:
When did this occur for Cornelius?
Sure it was Acts 10:44.

I would not worry about the labels these guys come up with. The worst thing that can be said of any "christian" is that he is not a Bible believer and once again these guys have shown that they do not believe the plain declaration of Acts 10 that Cornelius was not saved until Peter preached to him.

Everything must fit neatly into their presupposed theology and if it does not, they have to twist and pervert God's word and at the same time heap upon others who don't agree with them derogatory labels.

The fact is that no one is saved until they repent and believe. Cornelius did not even know what the message was, and he had to hear it because faith cometh by hearing etc.

DJC49 wrote:
Exactly!
The balance of probabilities.
No video necessary.
And the weight of all the various textual and stylistic "fingerprints" and "markers" which are quite evident in the 3 posts of "Greek Man" and ALL your *Calvinist Understanding* posts PREVIOUS TO TODAY would hang you!

Conscience bother you much?
BTW, I already have your e-mail addy!
***Hahahahaha! Wouldn't THAT be a laugh!***
(inside joke, folks)

Going by stylistic "fingerprints" and "markers" I would guess that all the hyper Frenchies on SA are one and the same individual just changing monikers and having a prolonged conversation and debate with himself- and presumably it is you DJ

Tell me DJ, what makes you so twisted and hateful- conscience bother you much. I bet not.

I have nothing to hide and nothing to worry about. So I shall be sleeping soundly thanks.

You have my email address? Now how do you figure that?

Listen, DJ- do your worst. But know this unless you have irrefutable proof then you had better desist from your lies.