Mike wrote:
Mr 'enry be imaginarious, hey? Satan be bound and *sealed* up in the bottomless pit, but still be prince of the world. Seal leak a bit? Empire became Christian? Ha! Good one!

Once the Gospel and the Holy Spirit went out, MUCH of that prior demonic domination over the nations subsided, i.e., Satan had been BOUND at the Cross!

Tony Lopez-Cisneros wrote:
It Looks Like "djc49" Is One Of BILLIONS Of Gentiles That'll NOT Escape ALIVE After The Great Tribulation!

He NOW Has An Opportuity To Believe The Apostolic Doctrine Of The Pre-Tribulation/Millennial RAPTURE & Be Saved From The Great Tribulation!

But he Chooses To Totally Damningly Doubt & Disbelieve The Truth Of The Pre-Tribulation/Millennial RAPTURE Of Christ's TRUE Catholic/Universal Body, Bride, People & "General Assembly And Church Of The Firstborn, Which Are Written In Heaven"

But There Will NO ANSWER Be Given To him By Me; But ONLY The Answers That Are Given In The Authorized Holy-Bible Scriptures: And In The Authorized Holy Historic Writings (Non-"Canonal") Of The Apostles & Their Disciples Like Paul

Now tell me ... what does The Apostolic DOCTRINE Of The Pre-Tribulation/Millennial RAPTURE have to say about the resurrection of the dead in Christ as described in 1Thess 4:16?

Tony Lopez-Cisneros wrote:
Hear & LISTEN, "djc49": Some Things You Will NEVER Know ...
This Is Where Spiritual EXPERIENCE (A Continual Holy-Spirit/Spiritual Experience) Needs To Be Applied & Coupled With General, Basic & Academic/Intellectual Authorized-Biblical Canonal/Non-Canonal Historic Documented/Documentation Knowledge!

Simple Stated: You've Got To Be Lead, Directed, Guided & Taught By "The Holy Ghost (Spirit)": Who Incidentially NEVER Contradicts The Authorized Holy Bible-Scriptures (The One-&-Only Sacred 66-Booked Canon Of SCRIPTURE)...
[snip]

So tell me, ... what does The Divine Illumination, Guidance, "Still Small Voice" & Direct Spiritual Intervention/Intercourse With Almighty GOD, The Holy Spirit: As Authorized-Biblically & Spiritually Revealed By This Blessed "Third Member" Of The One-And-Only HOLY TRIUNE GOD
tell **YOU** about the BODILY resurrection of the dead in Christ as per 1Thess 4:16?

Can we or can we NOT rightly call this particular resurrection "the first resurrection" and remain true to the Bible?

Mike wrote:
So how long is the thousnad years of now, pew view? Two thousand? Maybe you need to reform your view, pew

Citing the poetic and metaphorical language found in the Psalms as an example, we MUST take such language FIGURATIVELY otherwise we would have such absurdities as God claiming ownership of the cattle on **ONLY** 1000 hills -- no more, no less.

"For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills." [Psalm 50:10]

Likewise, God would be limited to remembering His covenant for ONLY 1000 generations -- no more, no less.

"He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations." [Psalm 105:8]
________

Tony Lopez-Cisneros wrote:
"djc49": If You REALLY Want To Know The TRUTH; Then You WILL BELIEVE The Authorized Biblical LITERAL & Historic RECORD !

So, IF you will, IF it is your good pleasure, PLEASE clarify just ONE thing for me so that I might understand.

Teach me.

According to 1Thess4:16,17 -- at the RAPTURE, the dead in Christ will rise first (v16). Is this a bodily resurrection from the dead? I understand that those who are alive and remain will be "caught up" (RAPTURED), but I need to know if the dead who rise first -- before those who are raptured -- are BODILY resurrected from the dead.

Now, if this is indeed a BODILY resurrection from the dead, could this be rightly called "the first resurrection?" Is it Biblical to call it that? Doesn't this resurrection of the dead in Christ (coming immediately before the Great Tribulation) qualify as "the first resurrection?" Am I on the right path about this?

I will patiently and expectantly await your good response. Thank you.
_

Michael Hranek wrote:
DJC49
No! thank you.

Michael Hranek wrote:
First Resurrection

Rev 20
5 But the REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years

Are these "REST OF THE DEAD" saints?

And if they are NOT saints, then what are they doing having a part in "the first resurrection?"

I ask this because according to the very next verse (Rev 20:6), "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection."

2Peter 3:8 is NOT to be taken literally. Otherwise, your literal 1000-year Millennium is reduced to ONE day! Ha!

Bride of Christ, Wedding feast and Marriage are all allusions to the INTIMATE relationship Christ has with His Church. It's metaphor! I don't suppose you'd want to extend the metaphor of Christ and His Bride and tell us all about the consummation of the marriage, would you?

Now, since you DON'T want to handle 2Pet 3:3-14, take a look at 1Thess 5:2-4 --

Paul writes:
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

"day of the Lord"
"thief in the night"
"sudden destruction"

Is this not the same Day of the Lord which Peter speaks about in 2Pet 3? Is this NOT the time when the heavens & earth will be burned up? Notice also: those doomed are saying "PEACE AND SAFETY."

GK wrote:
I don't know if any of you have come across the harpazo/jewish wedding analogy
it makes for interesting reading to compare the two
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/introwedding.htm

It's absolutely amazing what men can fabricate using Scripture!
What fantastic doctrines they can come up with utilizing word associations, similies, and perceived parallels found in the word of God!

The "END OF THE WORLD" prognosticators have been doing this very same sort of BIBLE ALCHEMY since who-knows-when (and they haven't stopped!) duping millions of believers who anxiously run out and buy their books ... only to be greatly disappointed.

Justifying pre-trib/pre-mill Dispy eschatology with some loose associations that can be made with the ancient Jewish wedding may be "interesting," but this type of "PROVING ONES DOCTRINE" is a
s-t-r-e-t-c-h and a half much like those who "PROVED" that the *Kennedy dollar bill* foretold, in numerous ways, the assassination of JFK in Dallas!

Specious handling of Scripture -- at best.

GK wrote:
so DJC

These are CLEAR verses of Scripture in contrast to the apocalyptic language found in Rev 20:1-3 which has "Satan bound for 1000 years." (What does that really mean? And what does that exactly translate into in regard to life on earth?)

But here's MORE 2 Peter 3:
v.10 "But the day of the Lord will come AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

"thief in the night"

Now ... WHEN EXACTLY does this "heavens passing away" and this "earth being burned up" come according to pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism? At the end of the 7 year Trib? At the end of the 1000 year "Millennium?"

In EITHER case, how is this like a "THIEF IN THE NIGHT?" Huh???

Because if it comes at the end of the 7-year Trib, I can tell you EXACTLY when it comes! (7 years after the "rapture" or 3½ years after the Antichrist breaks his so-called treaty with Israel) OR ... if it comes at the end of the literal 1000 year Millennium, I can tell you EXACTLY when it comes! And it WON'T BE COMING like a ...

"thief in the night"

PLEASE reconcile these verses of SCRIPTURE with your Dispy eschatological scheme:

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" [2Peter 3:11,12]

So, in the light of the context in which these 2 verses are found [2Peter 3:3-14], what was Peter saying?

Is there anything in these verses which even HINTS at Peter admonishing Christians to walk a certain way as they look forward to Christ's FIRST 2nd Coming -- the Darby-Scofield version of the "rapture?" Is Peter telling them to be careful how they behave since they will be RETURNING with Christ, BACK TO A FALLEN WORLD, to reign for 1000 years? And THEN, after their 1000 year co-regency with the Lord, a huge rebellion takes place? And THEN comes this "heavens being on fire?" Huh?

GK wrote:
MYTH!!!

EPHARAEM THE SYRIAN SAID, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Let us start with the following SCRIPTURE:

[John 5:28,29 -- Jesus speaking]
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Hmmm.

Now, ... would the pre-trib/pre-mills PLEASE tell me where this GENERAL resurrection fits within their Dispy eschatological scheme? And while ya'll are at it, PLEASE show from Scripture where Christ has **TWO** 2nd Comings; and where there are AT LEAST **THREE** Resurrections of the righteous.
This is what pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism teaches!

John UK wrote:
Thanks DJ for that link
CHS says a lot in short space

*Mike* | New York --

A little more about 2 Cor 12:16 and Paul "using GUILE"

The KJV, the NASB, & the NIV translations do NOT make the verse clear. Surprisingly, better translations come from ...

"But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, YOU SAY, and got the better of you by deceit." (ESV)

"But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, YOU SAY, and got the better of you by guile." (RSV)

"Some of you admit I was not a burden to you. But THEY STILL THINK I was sneaky and took advantage of you by trickery." (NLT)

Mike wrote:
Paul wrote:
2 Cor 12:16
"But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile."

I guess guile would fall into the category of fooling. Perhaps it's ok, as long as not accompanied by amusement?

"AN EVIL IS IN THE PROFESSED CAMP OF THE LORD, so gross in its impudence, that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it during the past few years. It has developed at an abnormal rate, even for evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the church that part of their mission is to provide ENTERTAINMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, WITH A VIEW TO WINNING THEM."

Don't you find it amazing that Spurgeon wrote this way back in the 1800's?

Please read the entirety of what Spurgeon had to say on the subject by clicking on the following link:
[URL=http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/Church/Spurgeon.htm]]]Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats?[/URL]
It's VERY short and will take you all of 2 minutes to finish reading.

(And you thought the "6 Flags Over Jesus" phenomenon was something of only recent vintage, right?)

Mike wrote:
you missed the point. The non-elect need not swim in the seas of false beliefs, for, as you say they are born depraved and condemned. It wouldn't matter if they were floating in the air of enlightenment, they continue condemned, yes? Ed suggested that these false beliefs are devil-designed to keep the sinner away from the truth that sets them free. But no truth can set them free due to election anyway, thus either/or is valid

Mike wrote:
Do they not receive the truth because they are not elected

Mike wrote:
OR have they by false beliefs been confounded and confused away from the Lord and the truth which can set them free?

Mike wrote:
... if they are not elect, there is little that any false beliefs could do to make them more non-elect. So what's the point? Another reformed mystery? Maybe it's some sort of devilish insurance policy. You know, make sure them there sinners stay that way

We were ALL: [a] born as totally depraved souls [b] into a fallen world permeated with many false belief systems, the author of which is the "god of this world" who works in CONJUNCTION with man's already depraved nature and mind. Fallen man lives WITHIN a fallen environment -- an evil world system whose architect and mastermind is the devil.

Therefore, you can not fairly ask an either/or question to a problem which is essentially both/and.

Ed Word wrote:
Mind blinding is not just a matter of ignorance or human decision prevention, it is the MYRIAD OF FALSE BELIEFS manufactured by Satan and sin in the human condition, to confound and confuse the sinner by deceit away from the Lord and the truth which sets the sinner free. This is the dominion of sin where we find the natural man.

ALL the heresies, false religions, ideologies, "ism"s, various philosophies, worldviews, and belief systems outside of the Christian Faith are the very "strongholds of Satan" which he uses to blind the minds of men. There must be tens of thousands of them.

John UK wrote:
DJC49, good posts concerning this verse and following, but I still can't figure out why the devil seeks to 'blind mens minds' when THERE REALLY IS NOT MUCH POINT, as they are already blind (dead) due to their sin. Any ideas bro? Or bro Mike?

There's NO SUCH THING as "overkill" when it comes to Satan's desire to destroy as many men as possible in his war against Christ and His gospel all for the sake of enlarging his dark kingdom. So it shouldn't surprise you that it is written that he: "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not." [BTW, I take this "blinding of the mind" as a metaphorical phrase describing things eminently real.]
_

Mike wrote:
Sounds reasonable, DJ. Problem is none of this changes the sequence plainly given in the first part of the verse. (..hath blinded the minds of [whom?]them that believe not) I would have to question how the power of Satan is such that it can defeat the gospel before it is even presented

ALL are lost prior to hearing the gospel.
ALL are "dead" in trespasses and sins prior to hearing the gospel.
ALL have "blinded minds" prior to hearing the gospel.

John 3:18
He that believeth on Him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned ALREADY ...

And it's a curious & suspect notion that something (the gospel) can be defeated before there is ever a confrontation -- before the gospel is even presented. The simple fact of the matter is that the Word, through the Holy Spirit, gives sight to the blinded minds and hearts of those Whom He chooses by GRACE overcoming the power of the god of this world. To the rest? They remain in their original dark condition.