Brother Don wrote:
This Laodicean age with its apostate scholarship is not the time to be messing around with the wording of the Holy Bible.

Daddy wrote:
... you would think that they could see that in Paul's epistle grace is always the gift not faith.

Casob wrote:
He will save you in the same way but you must believe. I pray all of you will.

Daddy wrote:
Bernard,
Well, I am glad to know that you are at least digressing.
Now to answer your question plainly, the payment is made to God.

Secondly, I am stunned that you suggest I am digressing. The topic of the survey is "For whom did Christ die?". This is a transactional question.

We all agree that Christ's death was a propitiation payment, made by Christ. That's Part I of the transaction.

Part II is, to whom is the payment made. You agree, it is made to God the Father. It is the Father's righeous anger that is appeased by the propitiation.

Part III is: For whom was the payment made? Who made the Father angry, such that the payment had to be made? We all agree, that it was for sinners. Here the agreement stops. But pause that.

Part IV: Did the Father accept the payment, for all for whom the payment was made? I propose yes. That acceptance appeases the Father's anger with those for whom the payment was made (for whom Christ died).

Whether Christ died for a limited number of people, or every individual, the payment was acceptable to the Father for that number.

DJC49 suggests that it is the 'setting apart' of believers at justification.

Adelphos wrote:
The main purpose of the church is to glorify God, plain and simple. Everything else flows from this understanding!

Daddy wrote:
Actually, no.
But since I know the truth is so hard to refute, I can understand why you would want to argue against an imaginary objection.

I agree with this: the payment must be accepted or rejected by the person to whom the payment is made. If my friend Icon kicks in the door of your Lexus, you may (justly) get angry,. I may then offer you $2000 cash as a propitiation, which you may accept or reject. It is not for Icon to accept or reject the propitiation made on his behalf: he does not enter into the transaction. I offer to pay: you choose to accept or reject.

However, you go on to say that "it is a matter of whether or not a sinner will accept Jesus's death as payment or not". The sinner created the offence and Jesus offered the payment. Yet you say that the sinner must accept the payment, or propitation!

When I raised this concern, you patronisingly mocked me, and said, "Actually, no".

Daddy wrote:
So it's not a matter of God being paid twice, Mr. Strawman, it is a matter of whether or not a sinner will accept Jesus's death as payment or not.
Now this is where my house of cards becomes a massive fortress. Jesus has propitiated the sins of the whole world. While the Calvinist would say that he is the propitiation for our sins ONLY...

You would argue that the payment is made to the sinner! That it is the sinner that can accept or reject the payment! Christ paid the price to God for the propiation of sins.

(unnamed) wrote:
You mean the "context of the whole scripture"? Yea, I have heard that before.

Icon O'Clast wrote:
...taken out of context from the whole monologue of Jesus...

Icon O'Clast wrote:
[about sin] Not very sick and needing medicine, but dead and needing resurrection. Until you see that you will never understand grace. You were a corpse, rotten and stinking. Your own mother would not have touched you, but Jesus did.

Faithful Remnant wrote:
Soon to be married!

The man who believes he has no choice but to follow the God who pulled him from the mire and will never let him go?

or

Casob wrote:
I am so confused. Help me here DJC49. I beg you. Please!

JR Morgan wrote:
rogerant, I don't see why Calvinists pray. God has already made up his mind anyhow. Why bother?

I think most of us discussing here are Calvinists, not hypercalvinists. Hypercalvinists wouldn't bother talking to you on a forum, because God's made up his mind already, see?

I think generally speaking, hypercalvinists are probably not Christians (they just think they are the only true church).

Calvinists are closer to 'moderate' Arminians than to hypercalvinists. One of my close friend in my own church is an Arminian.

I'd like to encourage everyone to take a few deep breaths and settle down...

JR Morgan wrote:
.. he came to save all those who would come to him. ...His goal in dying for all was to give everyone the opportunity to be saved. ...Of course He didn't expect everyone to get saved. ...He did say that he would draw all; however he said that they can resist if they want.