just a thought wrote:
Where does God command us to debate fellow believers?

In my prideful, arrogant opinion, debating fellow believers is a function -- a subset of -- being a good Berean. I'm CONSTANTLY looking into Scripture to see "whether those things are so." [Acts 17:10-11]

I myself have learned a LOT by entering into debates here. Such is the way I learn: the challenge to defend a theological point DRIVES me to look more deeply into a subject, find things in Scripture I would have normally overlooked, and forces me to re-examine my presuppositions.

You don't know this, *just a thought*, but I am CONSTANTLY saying to myself: "perhaps I am WRONG."

Whatever else, I enjoy the back-and-forth and mourn the fact that many others do NOT take discussing "theological issues" more seriously. To me, it's all "iron sharpeneth iron" and you don't know HOW many times certain debates/discussions here have led me to deeper convictions or even CHANGES in my perspective.

I've found this forum a tool for learning, a mirror for self-examination, and a glimpse into some of the absurd notions which Christians hold in their belief system.

Candle Lit wrote:
DJ,
Your Scripturally based argument for God having fulfilled the land promises to Israel is compelling, and I can't answer your related questions.
BUT, would you answer this question for me? WHO will be the guests at the marriage supper of the Lamb? A wedding has guests. The bride is the Church, and the Bridgegroom the Lamb, BUT.....WHO....will be the guests?

"having a razor sharp tongue"
having "prideful arrogant ways"
"flaunting [my] superiority"
"giv[ing]e off the impression that [ I ] have all the answers"
"resort [ing] to ridicule"
"go[ing] to great lengths to investigate others"
being "obsessed with this forum"
and going "to the extreme"

I don't want to be the reason for YOUR not frequenting this forum as much as you used to, so I've resolved [cough] to immediately cut down (somewhat) on my posting here.

And I'll start by NOT answering your question!
_

just a thought wrote:
Please, shut this down and do as the Bible commands, preach the word

Just shut down ALL venues of Christian debate; close down ALL Christian websites, blogs, and internet forums which permit anything but preaching/evangelism; silence ALL discussion on any and ALL Biblical topics which do not directly pertain to getting the Gospel to the lost. IOW, Christians should be involved with NOTHING BUT preaching ... in the meantime, all sorts of foolish, heretical nonsense will permeate websites given the vacuum created by a Christian absence.

*just a thought* .. have another thought!

And may I suggest that IF you feel THAT strongly about how one spends his time, then stop posting here altogether -- you are wasting YOUR precious time! I'd recommend that you be concerned with only YOUR usage of time, heed your own advice, and YOU go preach the word! (perhaps you'll never read this post as you wouldn't want to be "wasting your time" by doing so)
_

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" [Eph 4:11]
_

JJ wrote:
In regards to the land that God has promised Israel, Gen 15:18 God tells Abraham that to his descendants He give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates. God later confirms this promise to Abraham's son Isaac, and Isaac's son Jacob. When the Israelites were about to invade the Promised Land, God reiterated the land promise, as recorded in Joshua 1:4, that their territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates — all the Hittite country — to the Great Sea on the west.
Israel has so far never occupied this land of the promise

1 Kings 4:21
"And Solomon reigned over ALL kingdoms from the river [the Euphrates] unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Eygpt"

The land covenant which God made with Abraham was NEVER about Israel ***occupying*** every square foot of the land. Her occupation of the covenanted land was always conditional to her obedience to TAKE the land which was actually GIVEN TO HER. God KEPT AND FULFILLED His unilateral covenant concerning GIVING the land to Israel ... as Scripture clearly attests.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. THEN COMETH THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

These verses CLEARLY show that those who are Christ's will be resurrected AT HIS COMING! Then ... COMETH THE END!

Now what does THE END mean to you Dispies?

In MY vernacular, it means:
THE END!!!
Finis!!!
Game over!!!

Now I'd like to see any one of you Pre-Trib/Pre-Mill Dispies, who INSIST on reading Scripture LITERALLY, try to twist Scripture and the English language to have "THE END" mean that a 7-year Tribulation followed by a 1000-year Millennium will commence!

Then .. try sticking 1007 years in between Christ's Coming and where it says "THE END" just like you stick THOUSANDS of years in between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel!

Candle Lit wrote:
Excellent refutation of those who would say that Israel never possessed the land in its entirety at any point in history, but wasn't the covenant with Abraham an EVERLASTING covenant?

However, absolute POSSESSION of the "land" is conditional upon the obedience/faith of God's True Israel -- Abraham and his SEED (singular), are the "children of promise" and NOT national Israel.

"Now to Abraham AND HIS SEED WERE THE PROMISES MADE. He saith NOT, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." [Gal 3:16]
_____

Now I want to provoke your thinking by asking:
How could there be an "EVERLASTING" covenant about something which is temporary? (the land/dirt of this earth which WILL be burned up -- 2 Peter 3:10)

"Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for NEW heavens and a NEW earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." [2 Peter 3:13]
_____

Think also of this:

"Can it be said that the LORD had gone back on his EVERLASTING covenant when the so-called literal, earthly, 1000-year Dispy Millennium has ended?"

Great stuff!

But ...... SCRIPTURE LOUDLY proclaims:

And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL THE LAND WHICH HE SWARE TO GIVE UNTO THEIR FATHERS; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD GAVE THEM REST ROUND ABOUT, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; ALL CAME TO PASS. (Jos 21:43-35)

"So Joshua took THE WHOLE LAND, ACCORDING TO ALL THAT THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. And the land rested from war. (Jos 11:23)

Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham; And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, AND HAST PERFORMED THY WORDS; for thou art righteous (Neh 9:7,8)

I've noticed something quite disturbing about those Christians who babble on about the rapture: they are typically both Bible illiterate and are ignorant of or have little sense of historical Christianity.

Rather than feeling all comfy and secure in their daydreams about being raptured out of this difficult world, they should be spending MUCH more time steeling themselves against the onslaught of deception that this world and Satan is going to be dishing out during this time of the great "falling away" -- the apostasy.

Jesus Christ asked:
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" [Luke 18:8]

I take this as stern warning to His Church as to the condition of this world immediately prior to His 2nd Advent.

Christians, therefore, should be GROUNDING themselves in sound doctrine, devouring Bible truths, and intensifying their Bible study -- immersing themselves in the Word. It will probably be their only protection as we witness manifold heresies swirl all around us, atheism becoming quite vociferous, U.S. and world culture turning more decadent, Islam on the ascendancy, and Roman Catholicism swallowing up as much as can be devoured. I sense VERY perilous times ahead.

_____

John MacArthur describes himself as a "leaky Dispensationalist," and as such, he is **NOT** the focus of my diatribes against Dispyism!

I fully realize that there are many branches to the Dispy tree and that some Dispy birds are pearched farther out on precarious limbs than are others.

My MAIN concern is that most, if not all, Dispies have this utterly foolish notion that the Church will be spared the terrors of the "Great Tribulation."
They will not.

As far as I can tell, this world is careening into the very last days of this age and headed for the final "falling away" as described and prophesied in 2 Thess 2:3. Rev 20:7-9 is "right around the corner" and NOT some 1007+ years off into the distant future!

All this "happytalk" that I constantly hear churchpeople babble on about by saying: "Oh, I just can't wait for the Rapture!" makes me nauseous. They don't realize that when the Biblical rapture comes, it's NOT going to be during a time PRECEDING the Great Tribulation, but rather, at the very END of the worst deception and tribulation the world has ever seen!

Candle Lit wrote:
I really don't see WHY it matters to a Christian if there is a 1,000 year gap between the 2nd Coming of Christ and final judgment

Because of this erronous teaching, classical Dispyism put forth that Christ's death was merely "PLAN B" and that the Church was an unforeseen parenthesis in Redemptive history! This inferred that God made decisions based upon what MAN DID rather than what He sovereignly chose. Also, there were/are TWO ways of salvation: one of grace, the other by works of the Law. From this, we can establish that God Himself IS changeable and capricious.

The questions I have asked are indeed unanswerable BECAUSE they ask of such things which are an impossibility. It would be like asking: "What happens to real human babies born into a Bugs Bunny cartoon?"

It's IMPOSSIBLE to be naturally born into the Dispy Millennial Kingdom because there will be no such earthly kingdom! At least NOT as Dispyology teaches. There WILL, however, be a NEW CREATION: a NEW heavens and a NEW earth and THIS will be that "earthly" Kingdom which Scripture teaches about. THIS is the Kingdom which is eternal and will **immediately follow** after the sorting of the sheep & goats as found in Matt 25:31-46 AT THE 2nd ADVENT & FINAL JUDGEMENT. There is NO 1000-year gap between His 2nd Coming & FINAL Judgement!

This sorting out determines who is allowed into the Dispy Millennial Kingdom and who is left out and consigned to everlasting punishment. To the sheep Christ says: "INHERIT the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt 25:34)

IOW, these "sheep" thereafter LIVE IN this INHERITED Kingdom!!!

Now I must ask once again: what are NATURAL, sinful, fallen, "flesh & blood" men doing being BORN INTO this Dispy Millennial Kingdom? Doesn't 1 Cor 15:50 state plainly that "flesh and blood" can NOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God?

Now, ... Will not some of these newborns NEVER come to a saving faith? What are these UNSAVED doing INHERITING the Kingdom? OR, according to Dispy reckoning, will ALL these newborns be saved? And if so, what are these "saved" doing having a part in the GREAT rebellion that comes after the 1000 literal years have passed?

Victor wrote:
no

just wrong

Merely saying that I'm wrong is no refutation of my point.

Neither YOU nor anyone else has YET to argue successfully against my contention that: NATURAL, sinful, fallen, "flesh and blood" men who are supposedly BORN INTO the Kingdom of God during the so-called Dispy literal Millennial Kingdom have absolutely NO RIGHT to be inheriting such a kingdom according to Biblical teaching:

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood can NOT inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50)

Well guess what.
These newborns of the Dispy Millennial Kingdom are "flesh and blood" by YOUR OWN DEFINITION and they are indeed "inheriting the kingdom" -- which is AGAINST the clear teaching of SCRIPTURE!

You tell me that I MUST read the Bible literally and then you turn around and spiritualize the most OBVIOUS of literal passages in the Bible in order to maintain your pre-trib/pre-mill Dispy eschatology.

Now, ......... kindly address my point concerning these newborns of the Dispy Millennium.

Tony Lopez-Cisneros wrote:
The Very FACT That Man Is A "Tripartite" or "Triunity" In & Of Himself Only Affirms/Confirms The FACT That Almighty GOD Gives A Clear Distinction Between The Jews (Or Israel), The Gentiles (Or Non-Jews/Israel) And The CHURCH Of GOD (Composed Both Of Jews & Gentiles) !

Candle Lit wrote:
A] DJ, you said, and I agree that, born again believers, are in the kingdom, NOW, in a spiritual sense, but not as it will be. We still have the same flesh and blood house, if you will, for our spirit. Think about that in regards to your question above.

B] Would you tell us about Jesus' resurrected body? And, would you agree that we will have a resurrected body of like nature?

Dispyology has TERRIBLY confused and complicated the issue of last things and resurrection. It makes for nice charts, but it's horrible eschatology.

*Victor*
As much as I respect J. MacArthur, I find his explanation for Mt 16:28 highly unsatisfactory if not downright absurd ... and it's ALL because of his pre-trib/pre-mill Dispy eschatology which he thinks MUST be upheld!

This is why it's so ABSURD:
Jesus, in Mt 16:28 says: "There be SOME standing here, which shall NOT TASTE DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom"

"NOT TASTE DEATH"
Now, only 7 DAYS LATER ... ONE WEEK ... Peter, James, and John witness the Transfiguration! So was Jesus referring to His Transfiguration in Mt 16:28? Does MacArthur mean to tell me that Jesus was making an ASTOUNDING prophecy about something that would happen which was only 7 days away in its TOTAL fulfillment?

And WHAT A PROPHECY IT IS! -- That Peter, James, and John would live for at least another 7 days!

WOW!!!

Now, ... Do you REALLY believe that Jesus was saying, in essence, that the "some standing here" would not die within 7 days?

NO!!!

Mt 16:28 refers to a later series of events:
His Resurrection, His sending of the Holy Spirit, and His Kingdom breaking in after Pentecost! God's Kingdom come WITH POWER!

"SOME -- not all -- standing here shall NOT taste of death"
IOW, some(one) WILL taste death!

I appreciate your response.

However, it does **NOT** solve for those who are naturally BORN as fallen, "flesh and blood" sinners into the Dispy Millennial Kingdom! These newborns have NO business immediately inheriting the kingdom of God at their natural birth.

Also, you mentioned humanity (mortality) putting on immortality, i.e., corruptible putting on incorruptible. Well, seeing that these verses of 1 Cor 15 are in the context of Paul talking about the RESURRECTION OF THE BODY (glorification of same), it would seem QUITE CLEAR that the saints who make it through the Great Tribulation ALIVE have **NOT** put on incorruption; have **NOT** been resurrected from the dead into glorified bodies; and have **NOT** had their "mortal put on immortal" as per 1 Cor 15:53!

IOW, the Dispy Millennial version of the kingdom is bunkum.

_____

*Victor* --
You just did NOT address my point about still mortal men entering into the Kingdom of God. Neither did you address mere "flesh & blood" inheriting the kingdom of God by being BORN into it during the Dispy Millennium. Unbelieving GENTILES were certainly NEVER given this sort of promise -- not by a long shot.

Okay ...
I've read the verse and taken it in its LITERAL sense as I'm supposed to.
I believe what it says to be absolute TRUTH.
It says plainly -- and literally -- that flesh and blood can NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Seems simple enough.

Now, ... could ANY one of my pre-trib/pre-mill Dispy brethren PLEASE explain to me how there could possibly be NATURAL (albeit "saved") "flesh and blood" men entering into and inheriting the Millennial Kingdom after Christ's Coming in Rev 19-20?

Furthermore, how is it that natural, sinful, flesh & blood men are BORN INTO the Millennial Kingdom of God? (Both Jew and GENTILE) What right have they to the Kingdom? What right have they to INHERIT the kingdom of God since they are ALL only "flesh and blood?" And I thought that a natural "flesh and blood" man couldn't even SEE the kingdom of God unless he were first "born again." [John 3:3]
Perhaps in the Dispy Millennial Kingdom they have baptismal regeneration of one-day-old newborns BEFORE they could even open and see through their little eyes. Right?
But even THIS doesn't "solve" the problem.