Now, on that can you feel the love tonight thing... Do you think that Alexander the coppersmith or Hymenaeus felt a lot of love coming from Paul? Besides that, Im no Elton John fan... That was a joke...

Anyways, J, whoever said I didnt love someone, if they are my brother. I would chasten my own mother with a harsher tongue if I felt she was wrong in sin. I am just straight. Black and white. Straight with what needs said. It seems that was the way Paul held himself as well. Hence the infamous quote, "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

Now, on your illustration. First, the point is somewhat null, because I never tell a sinner to get clean before they get saved. The old saying of my pastor is, you don't get washed up before getting in the shower. Man I preach on the streets and in the jails, those people are NOT about to even try to get cleaned up before getting saved. So I know what point you are trying to make there, and I agree.

What one can't forget though is 1) you brought all this back up, and 2) the argument is over Christian drinking, not lost people before they are saved.

"...The only time He pointed out sin was when he was talking to a Pharisee..."

How bouts you read again there blind boy. Especially John 5,8,and 20, Mt 9, Mr 2, Luke 5, 7:48, 11, and 24:47. All of these are where he is addressing those who are not pharisees.

.."Oh and I guess I meant that I never purchase beer"...

....I actually dont drink.... If Im out with friends and they offer me a beer, I will likely then have one....

So, you either do, or you dont. First you said you dont drink then you said you will with friends. Is that spelled out better for you? Things that are different are not the same. English isnt your first language is it bub?

*** Note: Smoking doesnt send you to hell, rejecting the Saviour does. Dont be so legalistic. Gosh.

And on your comment to msc, i mean, good night man, you are stupid. Nothing personal.

.....He (Christ) never even talked about sin. Only when the self righteous ones wanted to get His goat did he even allude to sin....

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

"I agree that we need to keep the world out of the church,"

... Johnn, I see no other way of doing that than calling sin out and calling it what it is. Now, grant you, I know you don't believe drinking is a sin. We differ there, obviously.

And again, you are always quite the finger pointer about finger pointing. So stop judging me about being judgemental, or get over it.

Finally, self righteous? Sorry, wrong again Johnny-b. Isa 64:6, 1Ti 1:15, Ro. 3:10... you get the pic. So stop being self-righteous about not being self-righteous as well.

J-man: We are never gonna agree. Agreed? So how bout you shut up and I'll shut up, at least to one another. We don't even have to call it a truce, we can call it a speak-easy.

I am content to let you drown yourself in you own foolish demise. For 1 Corinthians 14:38 stands as true today as ever.

To make the statements he made (once again, regardless of views) as a public teacher is quite a stand. It will be interesting to see what becomes of this when all is said and done. Expecially for those of us Christians who are public school teachers.

Genesis 40:21 And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again; and he gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand:

But, your right about it being the butler, not Joseph. Possibly a slight mistake of memory? His point is still valid minus the mistaken identity.

If your gonna quote, quote it right!

Ye know not what [manner of] spirit [ye] are of.

As the son of a drunkard and the grandson of two dead alcoholics, I have a burning hatred of it.

The story repeats itself as:

Proverbs 23:29-35 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.