Lurker wrote: Hey Mike, Thanks for your thoughts grounded in reality. Obviously, I concur. But as for that .22 varmint rifle; I'd encourage you to not offend or neglect it as it may pull its own trigger and seriously injure someone. After all, guns kill. Blessings to you and yours, brother. I'm going back to the shadows of reality.
Perhaps it should be better thoughts grounded on Scripture
Mike wrote: 1. ...they are considered natural rights because in nature, created by God, we see that demonstration of survival instinct is intrinsic in the design. One needs no permission to protect wife and children, it's not up for discussion. The arguments from those who for generations have become comfortable with having govt as a parental authority/entity ignores this. 2. Today in the US, ... here, use tragedy to increase control, not because they give a rip about victims, but because they fear an armed people. As the fallen who lust for power should. 3. Still waiting for someone to explain how America would be safer if I no longer had my single shot .22.
1. 'Natural rights' should not affront/contradict NT teachings "Jesus said unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
3. Avengement and protection are God-granted powers to the state not to individuals,
"the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: ... For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. For he *is the minister of God to thee* for good."
Lurker wrote: Thanks sister B. I appreciate you taking the time to hear out our particular situation. It's not an easy one. Personally, I don't believe we, as a nation, will be able to put an end to the mass shootings. In my opinion, the best chance we have in our power to curtail them is to do away with gun free zones at schools, churches, shopping centers, etc. They are an open invitation to lunatics who can't handle freedom. Aside from that, God has the solution but He isn't speaking just yet. Blessings.
Again the solution you present does not fit the title the 'land of the free' with everybody armed to the teeth as it were.
There should be other alternatives, as a change of the frame of mind about the matter by taking on board the Scripture presented about the issue besides the political hints addressed.
Lurker wrote: Not so, sister B. The right to bear arms, among other rights specifically enumerated in our constitution, are considered natural rights. They are not granted to the states and the people by the federal government, which could just as easily take them away, but are considered inalienable rights granted by our Creator. In this regard, an old idea has not been perpetuated. I'm sure you could argue the biblical legitimacy of a natural right if you choose but, right or wrong, that's the way it is. As I said earlier, any attempt to infringe on the right to bear arms will be met with fierce resistance. So you can hypothesize all you want but it isn't helpful as it doesn't deal with the realities as they exist here.
Thanks for your take, Lurker Perhaps Deism, the belief existing at the time of the founding fathers, selectively picked and embeded such 'natural right' into American existence without caring for the whole context of the law of Christ.
It is true that spirits are frenzy regarding the topic, which has become totally entrenched in American nationalism as an untouchable sacred cow, yet there is no reason why this should be out the pale of biblical check.
Christopher000 wrote: 1. ... States that have license to carry laws have lower crime statistics, while all others that outlaw the right to carry, have disproportionately higher rates of crime and death. The statistics aren't even close. 2.Some seem to think America is like the wild, wild West. To these, I'd say, balance your news sources, or come on over for a visit to digest what's real, and what's been painted by mainstream media sources who have agendas.
1. So what you are referring to here is a kind of a 'home guard', where some states allow citizens to be part of policing their districts indirectly. Along the same lines, and in the absence of firm government policy handling conflicting districts in Ulster, local 'home guards' grouped together to curve local terrorism. Surely this should have an effect on crime.
But what do you think about the random shuttings that stir the American masses whipping up 'the right to bear arms' sentiment so heavenly in the population?
2. The above is the cause of our 'unbalanced' perception. On having been there knowledge of every day reality exists, yet agendas are suspected.
John, Eph.2:10 was in mind also: a work of grace
Thanks for your reflections bringing the issue back to Scripture
Thanks Lurker for yours. So to be an American means the right to bear arms. Where did that come from? From a revolutionary war of which like-minded leaders wrote a Constitution perpetuating the idea. Certainly this is a peculiarity of the USA, but let's checked this against sense and the biblical blue print.
First, in a media-controled society, one cannot be totally sure where the shuts come from. States use media and staged happenings to divert attention from realities, to create fear, or simply to pass a 'seemingly' needed new regulation, or tax, or perhaps, worse that these, to increase profits of gun production by making the population feel insecure, or unsafe believing they need the product for their safety.
When in reality how many lives the right to bear arms have spared? Or how many of such violent shutings have been diverted by the right to bear arms? Have they increase by it?
On the other hand dozen of civilised states function without the 'right to bear arms' and in following this pattern they approximate better the biblical blue print of government, because the defense against evildoers, and protection biblically lies on the state. Rom. 13
What if courts would move into the direction of righteousness, would this make the country safer? Of course
Mike wrote: The obsession lies with those who seem to hold a tool as inherently evil. Here we continually hear about "gun violence" but never about man violence. I have no obsession with that old single shot .22 in my closet. I'm still waiting for a logical argument from anyone that America would be more safe if I didn't have it. Details are more likely to reveal realities.
Mike, you bring some good pointers that could lead, if properly developed, to sound conclusions. Yes, "gun-violence"-talk points to an agenda propagated by the manipulating state media. The safety of any society in reality derives from godliness, not arms or politics.
Truth is a great weapon, so kindness, and above all the fear of God is the great antidote to crime, and trust in God's sovereigny and attributes renders peace to the believers' soul from whom our safety ultimately is.
So can we cerciorate the value of your tool in this context? Is America safer because of it? What if courts would move into the direction of righteousness, would this make the country safer? Or is all the gun-violence-talk a mere distraction from reality among others as Holywood, sports, entertainment, wealth or pampering are to a decadent, dull-sensitive society?
Dr. Tim wrote: Well, B. Mc, you finally said something that I cannot argue with when you said â€śthere is no end to our ignorance.â€ť Iâ€™m glad you owned up to it at last. That was the first display of humility I have ever seen from you, and shows that maybe there is hope for you yet. Well done.
We were called to bless. Insult never comes with this. However, if this is your way and makes you happy, it is clear where you are. Regretfully
Dr. Tim wrote: B. Mc, to assert that â€śpure wisdom, includes pure logicâ€ť is neither wise nor logical, inasmuch as this statement is in direct opposition to Proverbs 3:5-6. Furthermore, it implies that you yourself are the magnificent possessor of these keen mental faculties, which is exceedingly arrogant. Finally, no one except God and Americans has any business declaring what â€śAmericans need to do.â€ť Such pomposity is very unbecoming, although by no means unusual.
Tim, there is no end to our ignorance when stating what you do. It is obvious you do not have a clue how logic works. Pure logic never contradicts God's law. Character yields on it of what your demanour speaks.
Mike, glad to hear of your satisfaction in living in the 'land of the free' Your defensive talk to Adriel has no place as he did not go near that way
Crime, except checked, will be rampant in any society, but one would think exceptional that people have to be obsessed about guns in the 'land of the free'
See, a wicked heart would never understand how its own liberty ends were your neighbours starts, and only the gospel conquers this. If the land of the free is not free to choose this, then is a country in bondage to sin that has far gone its supposed origins.
Lurker, Self-protection comes in many shapes, colours, and sizes, gun obssession too. Americans need to separate the two. This is not easy in the pervading culture they live in. Definitions need to change in their heads, along with reading their politics with insight, before they can perceive the folly of this set frame of mind.
Tim, a slingshot killed bears and lions, not people. As a shepherd David did preserve his flock and perhaps evaded danger for himself by using this working tool, the same as he could have used an axe or a stave, but he did not self-preserve himself when killing the giant. In this instance he was resourceful in a challenging national hour to honour God. Remember he was representing a whole fear-paralised armed nation that could not fight.
Please, be smart by admitting the different setting and do not superimpose preconceived notions on biblical instances. Pure wisdom, includes pure logic, not twisted trickery.
Adriel wrote: 1. ... what some are advocating is 'Trust in gun - Not in God' 2. Guns appear to be entrenched in a false psyche in parts of America 3. As a defense phenomenon it belongs to lynch mob justice ideology 4. Blaming the murderous mass shootings on mental health does not cover the national obsession with guns 5. I am not a pacifist. War has nothing to do with this debate
1. It appears so
4. Repressive states are known to use staged happenings, fake news and sensational statements to keep a psyche alive for an agenda
5. Was Christ a pacificist by stating, "if my kingdom were of this world, *then would my servants fight* that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but ... my kingdom is not from hence"? He predicted ongoing wars in which the nations of this world would engage. He warned about the siege of Jerusalem. His advice was not to get armed and defend their little ones, but flee When wrong demands a response it is the duty of states to meet that demand as in Es 8, " *the king granted* the Jews which were ..." How do we determine a 'Just or lawful' war? But better, how do you know if God has delivered a situation to doom for a particular design of His?
So the unbeliever will not be accountable to God for murder?
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and *murderers*, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Herbal Mama wrote: B, Jesus death was meant for salvation. Therein lies the rebuke. This horse has been beat enough. I'm out.
Thanks, madam, So there is no sovereign plan in Christ for each of our lives? The will of God was as evident for Christ in fulfilling redemption as it is for us in all the happenings he allows in our lives.
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Just a Guy Prudence is useful, killing is another thing. Staves and swords seemed to have been used in the time of Christ to safeguard from, or chase away thieves and evil doers. See Mark 14 "Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?"
Significantly there was a provision in the OT for any inadvertently causing death or harm to a thief, because the purpose was to chase away or prevent harm, not to kill.
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Herbal mama The opposite has been proved with Scripture and the scriptures are perfectly used.
The will of God was as evident for Christ as it is for us in all the happenings he allows in our lives.
"Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a *faithful* Creator."
Or do we think that what God has planned for us we are going to avert because of our guns?
* * * * *
John, what you say is true, and that not in the context of persecution necessarily, but all about, and this is where the confusion some make of oranges and apples.
"... I am hoping ... will come to see that the Lord is a real person who really involves himself in real people's lives, but that he does not say the Christian life is easy nor necessarily long"
Carol wrote: 1. your opinion ... I respectfully disagree 2. ... do not live in the United States 3. ...choice ... granted to us by the U.S. Constitution 4. I assure you,we are not rebels, crusaders,or guerillas, Donâ€™t believe everything you hear or see on the fake news sites
Just a guy wrote 5. ...should we allow those who want to kill us ... or should we defend ourselves or our loved ones from those who want to do harm... 6.. ... is self defense ... biblical
1. Carol, any may choose to disagree with the Scriptures provided in my recent previous posts
2. From outside the picture becomes clearer. Can you imagine how arming Christians for a 'rightful cause' can precipitate an unmanageable war? This is the way the British were wooed into fight for the last two wars.
3. The people writing the Constitution had the revolutionary spirit in mind
4. Not implying such, this is your take, rather the state has wooed Americans into military mind set with their propaganda and tactics as flags and pledges in churches
5. Where is your trust? As much as you all believe in yourselves, God is out. Realistically do you believe your children will be safer because of all you can do?
6. This has been answered in part in a previous post
Carol wrote: ... the decision to bear arms is a personal choice As a Christian deadly force should only be applied as a last resort,to stop evil being committed or to protect human life.
Henry VII took away the right to bear arms in England by engaging all his knights in one single army: his, in exchange of protection, instead of each knight fighting each other by himself, or his own corner or wrongs with his chosen ally. This, not only ended the War of Roses consolidating England, but gave birth to the profesional armies countries pay today.
Riots, rebels, revolutions, as the USA war of independence from which the issue in question derives in part, crusaders and guerrilas arm themselves or rather get armed by those making profits nowadays.
Christians fight for a spiritual kingdom trusting that times are ordained by a supreme will with meticulous design not at random, but for our good and his glory. Hence we are exhorted to pray for peaceful and right outcomes that will protect freedoms and grant safety, singular tasks given to governments, though by poor law enforcement on their part evil multiplies.
"Ye have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil"
Just a Guy wrote: I like guns... They keep us safe... They protect ... people ...
1. Neither Jesus or Paul used arms to kill in self defence, but taught to remove ourselves from danger (Mat.10:23) or as they did, to use the protection of the temporary powers to whom the sword is given to punish evil. See Rm.13
"... one ... drew his sword, and struck ... Then said Jesus ... Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? ..."
"Jesus said ... Judas, betrayest thou the Son of God ... When they ... saw what would follow, they said ... Lord, shall we smite with the sword? ... Jesus ... said, Suffer ye thus far"
2. Jesus appealed to the sense of honouring God by fulfilling his will through the particulars ordained along Rm.8:28
"Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father has given me, shall I not drink it?"
"... if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but ... my kingdom is not from hence"
"But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled"